Question for ASA Pilots

[Long Time Gone]

A minimum fuel advisory should be made when it is determined that a
landing at the destination will be made with less than the planned reserve
fuel listed on the Dispatch Release


From the ASA FOM.

I understand that and correction made. However, the question was regulatory based, not FOM or recommendation based.

 

[Long Time Gone]

Can now.

14 CFR part 121 fuel requirements for domestic, flag and supplemental:
• All domestic operations:
No person may dispatch or takeoff an airplane unless it has enough fuel
to:
1. Fly to the airport to which it is dispatched;
2. Thereafter, to fly to and land at the most distant alternate airport
(where required) for the airport to which dispatched; and
3. Thereafter, to fly for 45 minutes at normal cruising fuel consumption.

Of course this is all for planning not for the real landing.

You need to seriously RTFQ.

The question was:

3rd. What min fuel requirements per regs do you have to land with.

The question was not "What min fuel requirements per regs do you need for reserve?" It also was not "What regulation requires you to land with reserve fuel?"

Just like the original poster stated to you before, your answer is for dispatch purposes (planning purposes) only, not for landing. Although you stated such at the end of your post, you've wasted your time.

When you were originally asked if you could state the reg that supports your answer, your initial response of "Nope" was the correct answer.

 

[XPOO]

Ok a question for dispatchers:
I am holding over ODF in a CR2 going to ATL. KCHA is the filed alternate. KCHA is is not looking that good as an alternate due to wx between me and that airport. The bug-out number that I have arrived at on this day was 4200lbs (reserve+alt+500lbs to get to ATL w/no downwind). I call flt control to see if there is a better option closer to ATL with better wx. They come up with KGSP (49NM from ODF) and a bingo fuel of 3100lbs.

Needles to say I found that number odd. I would not have found it odd if KTOC was my destination, but seeing as it is actually farther away from KATL than KCHA (40NM farther) I found that a bit off.

How do you guys come up with these magic numbers?

I was still going to divert at my number regardless unless I was heading towards KMCN, but they are things that make you go "hmm".

The oh sh!t light on on the CR2 is 900lbs. 1,200lbs for the CR7 and the ATR has a set of bicycle pedals for the FO to use to spin the props if they run low on gas.

I am assuming that the dispatcher figured you would divert instead of giving you a new alternate. Alternate burn is figuring that you actually make the approach into ATL and then go missed, climb back to altitude and then divert to CHA. Divert fuel is figured as you never leaving ODF to go to ATL at all and instead diverting directly to GSP from your current altitude. Hence, the fuel burn will almost always be less. Sounds like your dispatcher gave you divert bingo fuel instead of amending your alternate.

 

[WalterSobchak]

This is a flame bait post.

Indeed it is, but not entirely undeserved. There are many pilots that assume their dispatcher doesn't know what he is talking about and try to claim non-existent obscure regs when they are too proud to call it what it is: comfort fuel.

See replies #12 and 13.

 

[MaceyHold]

I am assuming that the dispatcher figured you would divert instead of giving you a new alternate. Alternate burn is figuring that you actually make the approach into ATL and then go missed, climb back to altitude and then divert to CHA. Divert fuel is figured as you never leaving ODF to go to ATL at all and instead diverting directly to GSP from your current altitude. Hence, the fuel burn will almost always be less. Sounds like your dispatcher gave you divert bingo fuel instead of amending your alternate.

Yep, dispatcher realized CHA wasn't good anymore, so "go ahead and divert right now to GSP...here's your fuel numbers to GSP, you will have a new release waiting for you to come back to ATL when you get on the ground." Perhaps the "divert right now" wasn't clearly communicated.

Of course, it could just be a dispatcher that doesn't understand what/how/why the numbers are being calculated, and gave you erroneous numbers.

I always thought the best way to keep a safe operation was the captain assumed the dispatcher didn't know what they were doing, and on the flip side, the dispatcher assumed the captain didn't know what they were doing. Hopefully, if the numbers came out equal, each side knew what they were doing...otherwise they both had wrong info

 

[bailout]

This is a flame bait post.

Dispatchers are FAA certficated positions subject to similar exams as pilots take for certification in addition to required medicals, time and duty regs, etc.

ALL of which a dispatcher would be WELL aware of in addition to their specific company's operational policies.

D' oh!

Not flame at all. The point he was trying to make, is yes he knows the rules, it's the CAPTAINS that are telling the dispatchers that they are required to have those things. So hes trying to get a concensus on what other Cpts think are the rules.

 

[WalterSobchak]

I always thought the best way to keep a safe operation was the captain assumed the dispatcher didn't know what they were doing, and on the flip side, the dispatcher assumed the captain didn't know what they were doing. Hopefully, if the numbers came out equal, each side knew what they were doing...otherwise they both had wrong info

Kind of an interesting perspective on it. I kinda do the same. I don't necessarily assume the captain has no idea what he's doing (though there are some I wonder about)...however, I can safely assume that he doesn't have the big picture I have in front of me.

I've discovered that very deliberate language must be used when it comes to alternate amendments and divert burns. I've had pilots argue with me that I was a total moron because the divert burn I gave them to the listed alternate is 1000+ lbs. less than the planned alternate fuel...however, that was not including the missed approach and climb out of that approach. Because of this, I make sure to use thos specific, deliberate words to make sure we are on the same page and no assumptions are made. In this case, if we were communicating via ACARS, it would look something like this:

DIVERT BURN FROM CURRENT
POS/ALTITUDE VIA ODF..KGSP
XXXX LBS.
DOES *NOT* INCL APPCH TO KATL
(INSERT LATEST KGSP METAR AND TAF
AS WELL AS ANY OTHER PERTINENT
INFO HERE)

Whereas, if we were amending the alternate enroute, I would send:

KCHA NO LONGER VIABLE ALTERNATE
LETS PLAN FOR KGSP INSTEAD
XX NM. FROM KATL
ALTERNATE FUEL INCL. MISSED
APPCH AT KATL COMES OUT TO
XXXX LBS.
(INSERT LATEST KGSP METAR AND TAF
AS WELL AS ANY OTHER PERTINENT
INFO HERE...THEN ASK WHAT THEY
ARE SEEING AND HEARING)

The key here is the fact that "Divert Burn" and "Alternate Fuel" should be considred to be two different things.

Kinda like one of those things that works as it is...but would work better if it were assembled correctly. But, hey, it does work.

Wait, are we actually sharing good information and learning things on FlightInfo today? WTF?

 

[PalmettoPilot]

Wait, are we actually sharing good information and learning things on FlightInfo today? WTF?

Well maybe, or else we're all just getting a good vocabulary lesson.

But wait... this thing has gone almost two full pages and yet nobody has mentioned that...

MESA SUCKS!

 

[Tarzan]

You need to seriously RTFQ.

The question was:


The question was not "What min fuel requirements per regs do you need for reserve?" It also was not "What regulation requires you to land with reserve fuel?"

Just like the original poster stated to you before, your answer is for dispatch purposes (planning purposes) only, not for landing. Although you stated such at the end of your post, you've wasted your time.

When you were originally asked if you could state the reg that supports your answer, your initial response of "Nope" was the correct answer.

Okay, okay... you win! :0

Are you the senior JK or the junior one?

 

[rightseatjocky]

Oh hell,
Just put the fuel on you want and don't tell anyone!!
Long time told me, he does that on every flight!!!
roflmao
:beer:

 

[GearUpLightsIn]

I am assuming that the dispatcher figured you would divert instead of giving you a new alternate. Alternate burn is figuring that you actually make the approach into ATL and then go missed, climb back to altitude and then divert to CHA. Divert fuel is figured as you never leaving ODF to go to ATL at all and instead diverting directly to GSP from your current altitude. Hence, the fuel burn will almost always be less. Sounds like your dispatcher gave you divert bingo fuel instead of amending your alternate.

What then is the point in staying in the hold from 4199lbs of fuel to 3100lbs for if Atlanta is no longer and option? Staying in the hold is just waisting gas.

I understand the reserve and alt fuels are for planning not actual etc., but I do want to be able to go to ATL, shoot an approach, go missed AND make it to my divert. If I go below the 4200lbs I might still have some wiggle room, but not much.

In this scenario I gave the dispatcher's divert airport and bingo fuel was useless. If you find an airport closer to my destination than the original alt airport with ok wx, then I can hang out in the hold a little longer... and that helps.

Unfortunatly, I think some dispatchers point and click a little too much without thinking. I say I am holding in XYZ location and they look for a divert near XYZ The computer gives thema burn from XYZ to new divert plus 45 reserve and that is the number they spit out on the radio.

 

[GearUpLightsIn]

Yep, dispatcher realized CHA wasn't good anymore, so "go ahead and divert right now to GSP...here's your fuel numbers to GSP, you will have a new release waiting for you to come back to ATL when you get on the ground." Perhaps the "divert right now" wasn't clearly communicated.

Of course, it could just be a dispatcher that doesn't understand what/how/why the numbers are being calculated, and gave you erroneous numbers.

I always thought the best way to keep a safe operation was the captain assumed the dispatcher didn't know what they were doing, and on the flip side, the dispatcher assumed the captain didn't know what they were doing. Hopefully, if the numbers came out equal, each side knew what they were doing...otherwise they both had wrong info

I was the one who called dispatch about CHA. wx was OK there though not as good as predicted. It also was not bad enough to require a new alternate and all the required numbers for a new alternate. I would have had to fly through bad wx if I had to go missed at ATL and then fly to CHA. That was my reason for calling up in the hold. I asked about some diversion options that were in clearer wx.

The dispatcher said "try to hang out until (3100lbs.)"
The radio was busy with everyone else trying to get new game plans going as well, so ended my talk with dispatch and talked with my FO about how off that was. We weren't to 4200lbs yet so we had a minute to deal with it. As I was trying to get back on with the dispatch to tell them that we were going to divert to GSP (@4200lbs) ATC cleared us into ATL and we landed no problem.

 

[GearUpLightsIn]

Kind of an interesting perspective on it. I kinda do the same. I don't necessarily assume the captain has no idea what he's doing (though there are some I wonder about)...however, I can safely assume that he doesn't have the big picture I have in front of me.

I've discovered that very deliberate language must be used when it comes to alternate amendments and divert burns. I've had pilots argue with me that I was a total moron because the divert burn I gave them to the listed alternate is 1000+ lbs. less than the planned alternate fuel...however, that was not including the missed approach and climb out of that approach. Because of this, I make sure to use thos specific, deliberate words to make sure we are on the same page and no assumptions are made. In this case, if we were communicating via ACARS, it would look something like this:
Whereas, if we were amending the alternate enroute, I would send:

The key here is the fact that "Divert Burn" and "Alternate Fuel" should be considred to be two different things.

Kinda like one of those things that works as it is...but would work better if it were assembled correctly. But, hey, it does work.

Wait, are we actually sharing good information and learning things on FlightInfo today? WTF?

That is good that you make the point to spell it out. Communication is the key here. Also, we as pilot should know the difference (from a FAA legal standpoint) between divert and alternate. You being there for the big picture is part of the point of a dispatcher in the first place.

I was forming a game plan of going towards CAE rather than CHA in the hold when I hit my "comfort fuel" point. Dispatch saying GSP is closer with good wx was better than my plan of CAE, as I would have been waisting gas to go to an airport farther away from ODF. Dispatch's fuel number was pointless.

 

[MaceyHold]

The dispatcher said "try to hang out until (3100lbs.)"
The radio was busy with everyone else trying to get new game plans going as well, so ended my talk with dispatch and talked with my FO about how off that was. We weren't to 4200lbs yet so we had a minute to deal with it. As I was trying to get back on with the dispatch to tell them that we were going to divert to GSP (@4200lbs) ATC cleared us into ATL and we landed no problem.

Well, I certainly wasn't there, so I can't say what was going on...that being said, there are many factors that the dispatcher could've been thinking about when giving that fuel number - one of which is they were just clicking and not thinking -

BUT keep in mind there is also an ATC coordinator in SOC, and they maintain pretty close communication with ATC, and have that big ATC picture as well...perhaps they had just called out that holding was expected to only be a few turns for each aircraft expect 10 minutes (even though your EFC was probably 30+minutes)...with that in mind the dispatcher thought "well, if he gets cleared in, he's not going to divert, so let's hold a bit longer in an effort to avoid the diversion (takes a lot of time and money to divert). Was the alternate required, or was the release planned conservatively with the alternate??? Had the weather changed to the point an alternate was not required anymore??? Just things to think about.

Like I said, very possible it was a point and click/not thinking fuel number too - that's why there is joint responsibility and you both come up with numbers and if they don't match, figure out where the error is, and get it fixed. If the radio gets congested, the PIC has the ultimate responsibility to make whatever decision seems best at the time. Maybe the dispatcher was having a bad day, and missed a calculation - if you see a trend with one person, let somebody know so some additional training can be performed - maybe a fundamental flaw in an individual can be resolved.

It works both ways - I've seen captains and dispatchers that have both had things resolved by uncovering misunderstandings.

 

[fltdspx]

Hahaha, hook, line, and sinker. Point made, eh. You'd be surprised how many line guys live by those rules.
FLTDSPX - that "rule" is in the Comfort Zone chapter - that chapter didn't make it into the Flight Control manuals.
Hope things are going well over in the hangar - BTW - good luck on this weeks matchup of the 7th floor league.

Looks like you won the prize MaceyHold....
so how are things in your neck of the woods ?

 

[fltdspx]

WalterSobchak.....thanks for the help I knew you would see what was up .....

I think the SkyWest vs ASA league would be great

 

[SLUF4]

GearUp,
I've had the same thing happen to me a few times here-I totally understand what you're talking about.

 

[GearUpLightsIn]

Well, I certainly wasn't there, so I can't say what was going on...that being said, there are many factors that the dispatcher could've been thinking about when giving that fuel number - one of which is they were just clicking and not thinking -

BUT keep in mind there is also an ATC coordinator in SOC, and they maintain pretty close communication with ATC, and have that big ATC picture as well...perhaps they had just called out that holding was expected to only be a few turns for each aircraft expect 10 minutes (even though your EFC was probably 30+minutes)...with that in mind the dispatcher thought "well, if he gets cleared in, he's not going to divert, so let's hold a bit longer in an effort to avoid the diversion (takes a lot of time and money to divert). Was the alternate required, or was the release planned conservatively with the alternate??? Had the weather changed to the point an alternate was not required anymore??? Just things to think about.

Like I said, very possible it was a point and click/not thinking fuel number too - that's why there is joint responsibility and you both come up with numbers and if they don't match, figure out where the error is, and get it fixed. If the radio gets congested, the PIC has the ultimate responsibility to make whatever decision seems best at the time. Maybe the dispatcher was having a bad day, and missed a calculation - if you see a trend with one person, let somebody know so some additional training can be performed - maybe a fundamental flaw in an individual can be resolved.

It works both ways - I've seen captains and dispatchers that have both had things resolved by uncovering misunderstandings.

Without sounding adversarial (I am not trying to be) as long as you dispatchers are talking about a pilot's comfort fuel in relation to misquoting regs etc... why don't you guys tell me what the point of holding until you only have fuel to get to your divert airport?

No one has justified that reasoning to me yet. Or not very well anyway.

YOu mention big pic with ATC. AS far as holding maybe only being 10 minutes when EFC is 30+ how good are you at getting that info to your crews? Maybe you are good at doing it, but lots of dispatchers aren't

Yeah if we hold a little longer odds might be good at getting in vs diverting, but do you figure into your thoughts that the flight might still have to go elsewhere after they exit the hold or do you always count that flight as making it to the destination as soon as they get out of the hold? It is my responsibility as PIC to keep the flight safe and I do what is necessary to keep it that way. I would not say that it is the dispatcher's fault if I found myself in a bad way after holding til 3100lbs, I can do fuel calcultations. But give me info I can use. What none of you guys will say is that you want us to burn into our reserves by giving us a divert bingo fuel.

If that wasn't true then there would be no difference from having a diversion airport and another alternate. Why would you want to have a flight flying around in wx where they didn't have the fuel to shoot an approach go missed and still fly to an alternate/divert airport AND still have 45mins of reserve? I don't think it is good practice to use your reserve fuel just to "save a lot of time and money". Diverting is a pain in the ass for flight crews as well as you.

That is this pilots view and maybe it will help (I hope) you guys to see what the thought process is on the other end of the radio on days like this.

Sorta related question for the ASA dispatchers:
Does an inbound ACARS message from a flight crew still just show up as atiny orange blinking box on one of your windows on your computer? A window that is probably buried under 6 other windows?

 

[fltdspx]

Without sounding adversarial (I am not trying to be) as long as you dispatchers are talking about a pilot's comfort fuel in relation to misquoting regs etc... why don't you guys tell me what the point of holding until you only have fuel to get to your divert airport?

No one has justified that reasoning to me yet. Or not very well anyway.

YOu mention big pic with ATC. AS far as holding maybe only being 10 minutes when EFC is 30+ how good are you at getting that info to your crews? Maybe you are good at doing it, but lots of dispatchers aren't

Yeah if we hold a little longer odds might be good at getting in vs diverting, but do you figure into your thoughts that the flight might still have to go elsewhere after they exit the hold or do you always count that flight as making it to the destination as soon as they get out of the hold? It is my responsibility as PIC to keep the flight safe and I do what is necessary to keep it that way. I would not say that it is the dispatcher's fault if I found myself in a bad way after holding til 3100lbs, I can do fuel calcultations. But give me info I can use. What none of you guys will say is that you want us to burn into our reserves by giving us a divert bingo fuel.

If that wasn't true then there would be no difference from having a diversion airport and another alternate. Why would you want to have a flight flying around in wx where they didn't have the fuel to shoot an approach go missed and still fly to an alternate/divert airport AND still have 45mins of reserve? I don't think it is good practice to use your reserve fuel just to "save a lot of time and money". Diverting is a pain in the ass for flight crews as well as you.

That is this pilots view and maybe it will help (I hope) you guys to see what the thought process is on the other end of the radio on days like this.

Sorta related question for the ASA dispatchers:
Does an inbound ACARS message from a flight crew still just show up as atiny orange blinking box on one of your windows on your computer? A window that is probably buried under 6 other windows?

While we do have to have a number of applications open in order to do our job.... the dispatcher monitor
is the one tool that stays open on top all the time. it's the application that has all of the flight planning software on it. and yes it's still a flashing red button when we receive a msg.

I can't speak for other dispatchers just as you can't speak for all pilots and I can tell you for me if you can't get into you dest. then I tell my guys/gals to divert. there is no need to stay up and waste fuel. and the burn I give is the burn from the holding fix. that is not based on the approach in... go miss ..and then go to your alt. it's called divert fuel... I don't like any of my flights to divert but face the fact that it does happen from time to time. However after saying all of that there are still no regs that say you can't burn into your Resv.

 

[Long Time Gone]

Oh hell,
Just put the fuel on you want and don't tell anyone!!
Long time told me, he does that on every flight!!!
roflmao
:beer:

Milk it 'til it goes "MMMMOOOOOOOOOO" baby.:beer: