Question for ASA Pilots

[fltdspx]

Just a curious question about fuel. We in dispatch have been told by SEVERAL pilots that
1st. they have to by regs land with not less then 3000lbs.
2nd. if they burn into their reserve. they have to declare an emergency per regs.
3rd. What min fuel requirements per regs do you have to land with.
all of these have been said to dispatch on numinous occasions and no one to date has been able to quote any regs to such statements...please help

 

[WalterSobchak]

This...should be entertaining.

 

[Tarzan]

Just a curious question about fuel. We in dispatch have been told by SEVERAL pilots that
1st. they have to by regs land with not less then 3000lbs.
2nd. if they burn into their reserve. they have to declare an emergency per regs.
3rd. What min fuel requirements per regs do you have to land with.
all of these have been said to dispatch on numinous occasions and no one to date has been able to quote any regs to such statements...please help

1. Negative. However, can't burn what you don't have.
2. Declare min fuel not an emergency.
3. Enough fly to our point of landing and on for 45 minutes. Generally around 2400-2700 in the 700.

If you're in dispatch, why haven't you read up on the regs and company requirements?

 

[SiuDude]

1. Negative. However, can't burn what you don't have.
2. Declare min fuel not an emergency.
3. Enough fly to our point of landing and on for 45 minutes. Generally around 2400-2700 in the 700.

If you're in dispatch, why haven't you read up on the regs and company requirements?

Can you quote the reg that supports statement #3?

 

[pave driver]

Just a curious question about fuel. We in dispatch have been told by SEVERAL pilots that
1st. they have to by regs land with not less then 3000lbs.
2nd. if they burn into their reserve. they have to declare an emergency per regs.
3rd. What min fuel requirements per regs do you have to land with.
all of these have been said to dispatch on numinous occasions and no one to date has been able to quote any regs to such statements...please help

An ASA dispatcher will know all of the questions you ask. Ask a dispatcher who is experienced. He or she will help you.

 

[fltdspx]

.
3. Enough fly to our point of landing and on for 45 minutes. Generally around 2400-2700 in the 700.

If you're in dispatch, why haven't you read up on the regs and company requirements?

that is for dispatch not for landing
I am and I have

 

[79%N1]

#3. Enough to land. Period. Regs are for planning.

 

[TOOL CRIB]

Just a curious question about fuel. We in dispatch have been told by SEVERAL pilots that
1st. they have to by regs land with not less then 3000lbs.
2nd. if they burn into their reserve. they have to declare an emergency per regs.
3rd. What min fuel requirements per regs do you have to land with.
all of these have been said to dispatch on numinous occasions and no one to date has been able to quote any regs to such statements...please help

1. Wrong
2. Wrong
3. Preferably enough to taxi to the gate when you land, but if you flameout while touching down, that's fine... although you start getting into the "hazardous and reckless" catch all reg if you do that too often.

 

[cheerios2]

"We in dispatch"

you know.... i heard once there was a book with all the regulations in it... Anyone know what this mythical book is called and where i can find one?

 

[Tarzan]

Can you quote the reg that supports statement #3?

Nope.....

 

[Long Time Gone]

Just a curious question about fuel. We in dispatch have been told by SEVERAL pilots that
1st. they have to by regs land with not less then 3000lbs.
2nd. if they burn into their reserve. they have to declare an emergency per regs.
3rd. What min fuel requirements per regs do you have to land with.
all of these have been said to dispatch on numinous occasions and no one to date has been able to quote any regs to such statements...please help

Not to be a butthead, but shouldn't Dispatchers already know all of this? Wouldn't this all be part of your certification or company training?

Like TOOLCRIB said:
1. Wrong, it's zero.
2. Wrong, and even the declaration of "Min Fuel" by someone else is wrong. The only time you really have to declare a fuel emergency would be when the DING sounded. I believe it's 600lbs. but could be wrong. That's why we have recurrent.
3. Like 'CRIB said, preferably enough to taxi to gate, or at least off of the runway.

Planning purposes does not mean actual. I've landed the CR7 with 1600lbs Total Fuel twice. Not that I wanted to, but that's what happened.

Remember this: No paperwork is a good day.

 

[MaceyHold]

Hahaha, hook, line, and sinker. Point made, eh. You'd be surprised how many line guys live by those rules.
FLTDSPX - that "rule" is in the Comfort Zone chapter - that chapter didn't make it into the Flight Control manuals.
Hope things are going well over in the hangar - BTW - good luck on this weeks matchup of the 7th floor league.

 

[WalterSobchak]

Hahaha, hook, line, and sinker. Point made, eh. You'd be surprised how many line guys live by those rules.
FLTDSPX - that "rule" is in the Comfort Zone chapter - that chapter didn't make it into the Flight Control manuals.
Hope things are going well over in the hangar - BTW - good luck on this weeks matchup of the 7th floor league.

Thank Raptor Jesus Almighty, at least one of you figured it out. I was kinda hoping it would go longer before someone had to explain fltdispx's intent. Would have been alot more entertaining.

I'm all for comfort. After all, it's your butt in the business end of that metal tube, not mine...so long as you give me the opportunity to tell you what I see out ahead of you before you make any rash decisions like diverting to an airport with no pax handling facilities or fuel truck drivers that aren't required to pee in a cup at random...decisions strictly based on hard, immovable numbers in you have in your head (that said, it'll be my butt in the business end of a witness chair at a federal inquiry when you become a smoking hole in the ground, so I do have a bit of a vested interest. ).

Well played, my ASA brethren...




Oh yeah, hey ASA DXers...how about a SkyWest/ASA Flight Control Fantasy Football League? No money for the inaugural season...winning office gets bragging rights.

 

[XPOO]

I've heard that Southwest Captain's are given "bonuses" for blocking in with only thier 45 min. reserve left. Any truth to this?

 

[Tarzan]

2. Wrong, and even the declaration of "Min Fuel" by someone else is wrong.

A minimum fuel advisory should be made when it is determined that a
landing at the destination will be made with less than the planned reserve
fuel listed on the Dispatch Release


From the ASA FOM.

 

[Tarzan]

that is for dispatch not for landing
I am and I have

Looks like I read the end of statement incorrectly.

 

[Tarzan]

Can you quote the reg that supports statement #3?

Can now.

14 CFR part 121 fuel requirements for domestic, flag and supplemental:
• All domestic operations:
No person may dispatch or takeoff an airplane unless it has enough fuel
to:
1. Fly to the airport to which it is dispatched;
2. Thereafter, to fly to and land at the most distant alternate airport
(where required) for the airport to which dispatched; and
3. Thereafter, to fly for 45 minutes at normal cruising fuel consumption.

Of course this is all for planning not for the real landing.

 

[JumpersAway]

Emergency Fuel declaration with ATC is at 900 pounds, per the FOM, in the CRJ-200.

 

[CRJ puppy]

This is a flame bait post.

Dispatchers are FAA certficated positions subject to similar exams as pilots take for certification in addition to required medicals, time and duty regs, etc.

ALL of which a dispatcher would be WELL aware of in addition to their specific company's operational policies.

D' oh!

 

[GearUpLightsIn]

Ok a question for dispatchers:
I am holding over ODF in a CR2 going to ATL. KCHA is the filed alternate. KCHA is is not looking that good as an alternate due to wx between me and that airport. The bug-out number that I have arrived at on this day was 4200lbs (reserve+alt+500lbs to get to ATL w/no downwind). I call flt control to see if there is a better option closer to ATL with better wx. They come up with KGSP (49NM from ODF) and a bingo fuel of 3100lbs.

Needles to say I found that number odd. I would not have found it odd if KTOC was my destination, but seeing as it is actually farther away from KATL than KCHA (40NM farther) I found that a bit off.

How do you guys come up with these magic numbers?

I was still going to divert at my number regardless unless I was heading towards KMCN, but they are things that make you go "hmm".

The oh sh!t light on on the CR2 is 900lbs. 1,200lbs for the CR7 and the ATR has a set of bicycle pedals for the FO to use to spin the props if they run low on gas.

 

[Long Time Gone]

A minimum fuel advisory should be made when it is determined that a
landing at the destination will be made with less than the planned reserve
fuel listed on the Dispatch Release


From the ASA FOM.

I understand that and correction made. However, the question was regulatory based, not FOM or recommendation based.

 

[Long Time Gone]

Can now.

14 CFR part 121 fuel requirements for domestic, flag and supplemental:
• All domestic operations:
No person may dispatch or takeoff an airplane unless it has enough fuel
to:
1. Fly to the airport to which it is dispatched;
2. Thereafter, to fly to and land at the most distant alternate airport
(where required) for the airport to which dispatched; and
3. Thereafter, to fly for 45 minutes at normal cruising fuel consumption.

Of course this is all for planning not for the real landing.

You need to seriously RTFQ.

The question was:

3rd. What min fuel requirements per regs do you have to land with.

The question was not "What min fuel requirements per regs do you need for reserve?" It also was not "What regulation requires you to land with reserve fuel?"

Just like the original poster stated to you before, your answer is for dispatch purposes (planning purposes) only, not for landing. Although you stated such at the end of your post, you've wasted your time.

When you were originally asked if you could state the reg that supports your answer, your initial response of "Nope" was the correct answer.

 

[XPOO]

Ok a question for dispatchers:
I am holding over ODF in a CR2 going to ATL. KCHA is the filed alternate. KCHA is is not looking that good as an alternate due to wx between me and that airport. The bug-out number that I have arrived at on this day was 4200lbs (reserve+alt+500lbs to get to ATL w/no downwind). I call flt control to see if there is a better option closer to ATL with better wx. They come up with KGSP (49NM from ODF) and a bingo fuel of 3100lbs.

Needles to say I found that number odd. I would not have found it odd if KTOC was my destination, but seeing as it is actually farther away from KATL than KCHA (40NM farther) I found that a bit off.

How do you guys come up with these magic numbers?

I was still going to divert at my number regardless unless I was heading towards KMCN, but they are things that make you go "hmm".

The oh sh!t light on on the CR2 is 900lbs. 1,200lbs for the CR7 and the ATR has a set of bicycle pedals for the FO to use to spin the props if they run low on gas.

I am assuming that the dispatcher figured you would divert instead of giving you a new alternate. Alternate burn is figuring that you actually make the approach into ATL and then go missed, climb back to altitude and then divert to CHA. Divert fuel is figured as you never leaving ODF to go to ATL at all and instead diverting directly to GSP from your current altitude. Hence, the fuel burn will almost always be less. Sounds like your dispatcher gave you divert bingo fuel instead of amending your alternate.

 

[WalterSobchak]

This is a flame bait post.

Indeed it is, but not entirely undeserved. There are many pilots that assume their dispatcher doesn't know what he is talking about and try to claim non-existent obscure regs when they are too proud to call it what it is: comfort fuel.

See replies #12 and 13.

 

[MaceyHold]

I am assuming that the dispatcher figured you would divert instead of giving you a new alternate. Alternate burn is figuring that you actually make the approach into ATL and then go missed, climb back to altitude and then divert to CHA. Divert fuel is figured as you never leaving ODF to go to ATL at all and instead diverting directly to GSP from your current altitude. Hence, the fuel burn will almost always be less. Sounds like your dispatcher gave you divert bingo fuel instead of amending your alternate.

Yep, dispatcher realized CHA wasn't good anymore, so "go ahead and divert right now to GSP...here's your fuel numbers to GSP, you will have a new release waiting for you to come back to ATL when you get on the ground." Perhaps the "divert right now" wasn't clearly communicated.

Of course, it could just be a dispatcher that doesn't understand what/how/why the numbers are being calculated, and gave you erroneous numbers.

I always thought the best way to keep a safe operation was the captain assumed the dispatcher didn't know what they were doing, and on the flip side, the dispatcher assumed the captain didn't know what they were doing. Hopefully, if the numbers came out equal, each side knew what they were doing...otherwise they both had wrong info

 

[bailout]

This is a flame bait post.

Dispatchers are FAA certficated positions subject to similar exams as pilots take for certification in addition to required medicals, time and duty regs, etc.

ALL of which a dispatcher would be WELL aware of in addition to their specific company's operational policies.

D' oh!

Not flame at all. The point he was trying to make, is yes he knows the rules, it's the CAPTAINS that are telling the dispatchers that they are required to have those things. So hes trying to get a concensus on what other Cpts think are the rules.

 

[WalterSobchak]

I always thought the best way to keep a safe operation was the captain assumed the dispatcher didn't know what they were doing, and on the flip side, the dispatcher assumed the captain didn't know what they were doing. Hopefully, if the numbers came out equal, each side knew what they were doing...otherwise they both had wrong info

Kind of an interesting perspective on it. I kinda do the same. I don't necessarily assume the captain has no idea what he's doing (though there are some I wonder about)...however, I can safely assume that he doesn't have the big picture I have in front of me.

I've discovered that very deliberate language must be used when it comes to alternate amendments and divert burns. I've had pilots argue with me that I was a total moron because the divert burn I gave them to the listed alternate is 1000+ lbs. less than the planned alternate fuel...however, that was not including the missed approach and climb out of that approach. Because of this, I make sure to use thos specific, deliberate words to make sure we are on the same page and no assumptions are made. In this case, if we were communicating via ACARS, it would look something like this:

DIVERT BURN FROM CURRENT
POS/ALTITUDE VIA ODF..KGSP
XXXX LBS.
DOES *NOT* INCL APPCH TO KATL
(INSERT LATEST KGSP METAR AND TAF
AS WELL AS ANY OTHER PERTINENT
INFO HERE)

Whereas, if we were amending the alternate enroute, I would send:

KCHA NO LONGER VIABLE ALTERNATE
LETS PLAN FOR KGSP INSTEAD
XX NM. FROM KATL
ALTERNATE FUEL INCL. MISSED
APPCH AT KATL COMES OUT TO
XXXX LBS.
(INSERT LATEST KGSP METAR AND TAF
AS WELL AS ANY OTHER PERTINENT
INFO HERE...THEN ASK WHAT THEY
ARE SEEING AND HEARING)

The key here is the fact that "Divert Burn" and "Alternate Fuel" should be considred to be two different things.

Kinda like one of those things that works as it is...but would work better if it were assembled correctly. But, hey, it does work.

Wait, are we actually sharing good information and learning things on FlightInfo today? WTF?

 

[PalmettoPilot]

Wait, are we actually sharing good information and learning things on FlightInfo today? WTF?

Well maybe, or else we're all just getting a good vocabulary lesson.

But wait... this thing has gone almost two full pages and yet nobody has mentioned that...

MESA SUCKS!

 

[Tarzan]

You need to seriously RTFQ.

The question was:


The question was not "What min fuel requirements per regs do you need for reserve?" It also was not "What regulation requires you to land with reserve fuel?"

Just like the original poster stated to you before, your answer is for dispatch purposes (planning purposes) only, not for landing. Although you stated such at the end of your post, you've wasted your time.

When you were originally asked if you could state the reg that supports your answer, your initial response of "Nope" was the correct answer.

Okay, okay... you win! :0

Are you the senior JK or the junior one?

 

[rightseatjocky]

Oh hell,
Just put the fuel on you want and don't tell anyone!!
Long time told me, he does that on every flight!!!
roflmao
:beer: