Question about student pilots and Class B airspace

[schoolio]

This was a question asked of me today, and the instructor and I disagreed on the answer:

Can a student pilot receive a class B endorsement to fly in the Class B airspace surrounding one of the airports listed in Part 91 Appendix D section 4? (ATL, LAX, EWR, etc)?

The way the instructor reads the reg, the student pilot cannot fly in the Class B airspace period.

The way I read the reg, the student can be endorsed to fly in the airspace, but cannot land at the primary airport (but why would you want to let a student solo in ATL airspace?).

Any of you CFI's in one of those large metros that can clarify this for me? Thanks.

 

[midlifeflyer]

You are right. It really helps to read the applicable regulations. These are just snips that illustrate the answer:

==============================
61.95 Operations in Class B airspace and at airports located within Class B airspace.
(a) A student pilot may not operate an aircraft on a solo flight in Class B airspace unless: (set of requirements)

****
(b) A student pilot may not operate an aircraft on a solo flight to, from, or at an airport located within Class B airspace pursuant to § 91.131(b) of this chapter unless: (set of requirements)
==============================
Notice that the FAR makes a distinction between operating =in= Class B airspace and flying to or from a Class B surface area airport.

Let's see if the distinction continues:
==============================
§ 91.131 Operations in Class B airspace.
***
(b) Pilot requirements.
(1) No person may take off or land a civil aircraft at an airport within a Class B airspace area or operate a civil aircraft within a Class B airspace area unless - (set of requirements)
==============================

Okay. Both are covered, but again both "operating in the airspace" and "operating to and from an airport" are mentioned, so the distinction between the two continues.

Not to the capper. The reg that covers the "special" airports:

==============================
§ 91.131 Operations in Class B airspace.
(b) ***
(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs (b)(1)(ii), (b)(1)(iii) and (b)(1)(iv) of this section, no person may take off or land a civil aircraft at those airports listed in section 4 of appendix D to this part unless the pilot in command holds at least a private pilot certificate.
==============================

Son of a gun! There's that language about taking off and landing "at" airports without one single word about operating in the airspace.

That settles it for me.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Mark,

Now THAT's the right way to answer a regulatory question!

(oh, yeah...I never read it that closely, either)

Fly safe!

David

 

[schoolio]

Thanks Mark. That's what I showed this particular instructor, but I still couldn't get her to agree with me. She still insisted that it was the airspace as a whole. I pulled out an LA sectional and told her if I was an instructor at Hawthorne (I think that was it; it's about 3 NM SE of LAX and inside the surface Class B), according to her interpretation, I wouldn't be able to solo a student pilot. Her response was that maybe they don't have a flight school there. Unsatisfactory answer to me, but I couldn't convince her otherwise. I'll have to search through the legal interpretations to see if I can come up with anything else.

 

[DX Jake]

you can do it dude. I had a class B signoff cuz I was learning right near PHL's space. The CFI can give you a class B signoff.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Thanks Mark. That's what I showed this particular instructor, but I still couldn't get her to agree with me. She still insisted that it was the airspace as a whole. *** I'll have to search through the legal interpretations to see if I can come up with anything else.

You may not find one.

Besides, why should a legal interpretation change her mind if the plain words of the regulations don't? You've probably been through enough "can I log PIC when..." discussions to know that there are folks who absolutely will not accept some of them despite consistent legal interpretations going back 25 years.

She obviously hear it somewhere, convinced herself that it's correct, and will =not= be deterred from her true beliefs.

Her response was that maybe they don't have a flight school there.

Better tell these people about it:
http://www.californiaflightcenter.com/frames.htm

 

[schoolio]

Thanks again Mark. I had several other instructors agree with me that the wording states airport, and not airspace. When I have my checkride in a week or two I'll ask the examiner to set her straight. Thanks.