question about STAR's ambiguity, real world IFR decisions

[apcooper]

If you are flying a published arrival and you are told by ATC descend via HADLY TWO arrival, for example, which alt would you go by? The MEA's of each segment, the "expect to cross at" altitudes or what? This seems pretty confusing. I think I'd just insist ATC call my descents so I don't inadvertantly bust an alt.

A second question. Looking at the MITTS TWO into LAX the chart says "proceed via rwy 25L unless otherwise told by ATC" My other question is lets say your inbound over GRAMM (PGS transition) and ATC says instead of "proceed via MITTS TWO arrival," they instead say "Proceed via MITTS TWO arriavl, expect RWY 24R"

Lets then say you don't hear anything more and the freq is busy so you can't break in to ask. Would you just consider this lost comm and therefore do the 24R transition if your in IMC (in this case "EXPECT" trumps last recieved clearance or as published) or would you still fly Rwy 25L since "expect" is not an actual clearance, yet anyway? Kinda confusing huh!!

One more scenario. After TO you are handed to DEP and are vectored for a while and then told proceed direct SBJ. You look at your chart and find SBJ VOR was not your initial fix OR a fix further down your clearance. Its not on it at all. If told to do this with no further instructions would you just hold there in a standard way and tell ATC the problem? Of course I'd just say right away "Departure, Cessna 112PF, SBJ was not on our orig clearance how about direct XXX" (the first wpt on orig clearance) If you lost comm in IMC in this situation I'd just ignore this and fly the normal lost comm routine and then call ATC after I landed and then tell them what happened. This seems like a hole in your clearance that might void it.

Like all your thoughts and opinions.

 

[FarginDooshbahg]

thoughts and opinions.

Thoughts and opinions? OK. Dude, it's the Holidays. Surely you have something better to do than sit around dreaming up some wild sh!t that is anything but real world IFR decisions, and has very little chance of actually happening. Well, except maybe the first question about being cleared to descend via the arrival. You know what I would do in that case? I would descend via the arrival.

Now that's real world.

 

[Snoopy58]

All of the STARs I've seen with the "descend via" clearance given, have mandatory altitudes for each fix, not "expect" altitudes. Perhaps an early fix as an "expect," but you don't get cleared to descend via the arrival until after you've been given some altitude for that fix.

As for the MITTS, I don't recall being told to "expect 24R," but rather "descend mia the MITTS arrival, runway 24R." If lost com happens, I now have everything I need until I can either reestablish com or look for the green light from tower. If they DID happen to say "expect," I'd do the same thing -- with lost com rules, "expect" comes after "assigned" and "vectors" but before "filed" -- if he said expect 24R, that's enough.

As for the "direct SBJ" when it wasn't on my departure, I'd acknowlege the clearance and at the same time ask where they want me after SBJ. They'll either recognize that SBJ isn't on your route & give you another fix, or they'll tell you after SBJ direct XYZ. If by some change you get to SBJ without having resolved this, I'd query ATC. If you're also lost com at this point, I would NOT go into a holding pattern in a busy departure corridor... I'd go someplace that makes sense (i.e. a downline fix on my route), or maybe continue present heading and hit IDENT if it was just a matter of getting a word in edgewise.

Hope that helps!

 

[atrdriver]

If you were given an arrival then EXPECT 24L, but the arrival specefies another runway, and then had lost comm, fly what is on the arrival. The airspace is going to belong to you anyway once they figure out that you are lost comm.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

If you are flying a published arrival and you are told by ATC descend via HADLY TWO arrival, for example, which alt would you go by? The MEA's of each segment, the "expect to cross at" altitudes or what? This seems pretty confusing. I think I'd just insist ATC call my descents so I don't inadvertantly bust an alt.

A second question. Looking at the MITTS TWO into LAX the chart says "proceed via rwy 25L unless otherwise told by ATC" My other question is lets say your inbound over GRAMM (PGS transition) and ATC says instead of "proceed via MITTS TWO arrival," they instead say "Proceed via MITTS TWO arriavl, expect RWY 24R"

Lets then say you don't hear anything more and the freq is busy so you can't break in to ask. Would you just consider this lost comm and therefore do the 24R transition if your in IMC (in this case "EXPECT" trumps last recieved clearance or as published) or would you still fly Rwy 25L since "expect" is not an actual clearance, yet anyway? Kinda confusing huh!!

One more scenario. After TO you are handed to DEP and are vectored for a while and then told proceed direct SBJ. You look at your chart and find SBJ VOR was not your initial fix OR a fix further down your clearance. Its not on it at all. If told to do this with no further instructions would you just hold there in a standard way and tell ATC the problem? Of course I'd just say right away "Departure, Cessna 112PF, SBJ was not on our orig clearance how about direct XXX" (the first wpt on orig clearance) If you lost comm in IMC in this situation I'd just ignore this and fly the normal lost comm routine and then call ATC after I landed and then tell them what happened. This seems like a hole in your clearance that might void it.

Like all your thoughts and opinions.

OH-MY-GOD!

I think I would just hammer the yoke forward and get it over with!!!!

.



...

 

[TonyC]

If you are flying a published arrival and you are told by ATC descend via HADLY TWO arrival, for example, which alt would you go by? The MEA's of each segment, the "expect to cross at" altitudes or what? This seems pretty confusing. I think I'd just insist ATC call my descents so I don't inadvertantly bust an alt.

You go by the altitudes published on the arrival you were cleared. The "Expect" altitudes are not MEAs, they are altitudes that you can expect. I'm not looking at the HADLY TWO arrival, so I can't speak to specifics, but I can use the MITTS TWO to answer. If you're cleared the MITTS TWO, you should cross CIVET somewhere between 14,000' and 17,000' inclusive. You should, if you're cleared to Runway 24R, cross SNRKL at or above 12,000', and so on. ATC is too busy to call out every point and every altitude to keep you from busting. That's why they're published.

A second question. Looking at the MITTS TWO into LAX the chart says "proceed via rwy 25L unless otherwise told by ATC" My other question is lets say your inbound over GRAMM (PGS transition) and ATC says instead of "proceed via MITTS TWO arrival," they instead say "Proceed via MITTS TWO arriavl, expect RWY 24R"

Lets then say you don't hear anything more and the freq is busy so you can't break in to ask. Would you just consider this lost comm and therefore do the 24R transition if your in IMC (in this case "EXPECT" trumps last recieved clearance or as published) or would you still fly Rwy 25L since "expect" is not an actual clearance, yet anyway? Kinda confusing huh!!

If ATC says to expect something (MITTS TWO to Rwy 24R) and you subsequently lose comms, you should do what you were told to expect. What's so confusing about that? (You were not assigned one of the four runways, and you were not vectored - - Expect is next.) By the way, it has nothing to do with meteorological conditions - - IMC, VMC, same story.

One more scenario. After TO you are handed to DEP and are vectored for a while and then told proceed direct SBJ. You look at your chart and find SBJ VOR was not your initial fix OR a fix further down your clearance. Its not on it at all. If told to do this with no further instructions would you just hold there in a standard way and tell ATC the problem? Of course I'd just say right away "Departure, Cessna 112PF, SBJ was not on our orig clearance how about direct XXX" (the first wpt on orig clearance) If you lost comm in IMC in this situation I'd just ignore this and fly the normal lost comm routine and then call ATC after I landed and then tell them what happened. This seems like a hole in your clearance that might void it.

Like all your thoughts and opinions.

If ATC says go to SBJ, you Tune, Identify, Monitor, and turn in the shortest direction towards SBJ. If there's time, you might mention that you're uncertain of ATC's intentions after SBJ. If you lose comms before you can collect that information, you STILL go direct to SBJ before doing anything else. You don't know why they cleared you there - - it may have been for traffic avoidance.

 

[Jmmccutc]

A second question. Looking at the MITTS TWO into LAX the chart says "proceed via rwy 25L unless otherwise told by ATC" My other question is lets say your inbound over GRAMM (PGS transition) and ATC says instead of "proceed via MITTS TWO arrival," they instead say "Proceed via MITTS TWO arriavl, expect RWY 24R"

you ever heard of "side-stepping"?

Kinda confusing huh!!

what you or the STAR? i had no problems figuring out the STAR...

One more scenario. After TO you are handed to DEP and are vectored for a while and then told proceed direct SBJ. You look at your chart and find SBJ VOR was not your initial fix OR a fix further down your clearance. Its not on it at all. If told to do this with no further instructions would you just hold there in a standard way and tell ATC the problem? Of course I'd just say right away "Departure, Cessna 112PF, SBJ was not on our orig clearance how about direct XXX" (the first wpt on orig clearance) If you lost comm in IMC in this situation I'd just ignore this and fly the normal lost comm routine and then call ATC after I landed and then tell them what happened. This seems like a hole in your clearance that might void it.

once you've taken off, your filed flightplan is basicly nonexistant, ATC will do the best to give you what you've requested but it might not happen...best case scenario, go direct SBJ, then hope ATC is having a good day and turns you on course after that...if you come back bitching about then sending you off route, i hope you have enough fuel for a LOOOOOOOOOOOONG flight...

good luck with all that dude...let me know how it all works out for you...

 

[mmmdonut]

ASK AN INSTRUCTOR

 

[Jmmccutc]

ASK AN INSTRUCTOR

ROFLMAO

 

[avbug]

How can there be any question about this? Lost com is very straight forward. Arrival proceedures are very straight forward.

With respect to "expect" notifications in a STAR, AIM 5-4-1 states the following:

The "expect" altitudes/speeds are published so that pilots may have the information for planning purposes. These altitudes/speeds should not be used in the event of lost communications unless ATC has specifically advised the pilot to expect these altitudes/speeds as part of a further clearance.

Clearly "expect" altitudes are not to be used when given a "descend via" clearance on a STAR, unless specifically applied by the controller. On the other hand, published altitudes provided in a STAR are mandatory when provided a "descend via" clearance, as provided also by AIM 5-4-1, as follows:

Pilots navigating on a STAR/FMSD shall maintain last assigned altitude until receiving authorization to descend so as to comply with all published/issued restrictions. This authoration will contain the phraseology "DESCEND VIA." A "descend via" clearance authorizes pilots to vertically and laterally navigate, in accordance with the depicted procedure, to meet published restrictions. Vertical navigation is at pilot's discretion, however, adherence to published altitude crossing restrictions and speeds is mandatory unless otherwise cleared. (Minimum En Route Altitudes [MEA's] are not considered restrictions, however, pilots are expected to remain above MEA's).

In the event of lost communications, the routing priority is first to remain in visual conditions. If this is not possible, one is to proceed as assigned in the last ATC clearance. If one has been cleared via the STAR and the STAR is to a different runway than the "expect" statement in the clearance, then one proceeds to the published runway. One has been cleared to the published runway, not the "expected" runway.

In the event a specific clearance doesn't apply, then you can fall back on an expected clearance, and if that's not available, finally to what you've filed.

One more scenario. After TO you are handed to DEP and are vectored for a while and then told proceed direct SBJ. You look at your chart and find SBJ VOR was not your initial fix OR a fix further down your clearance. Its not on it at all. If told to do this with no further instructions would you just hold there in a standard way and tell ATC the problem?

If you are given a clearance to a waypoint that was not on your origional clearance, then you have just received an ammended clearance. Receiving a waypoint thats not on your flight planned or cleared route is very common. You can always refuse the clearance, but you should have a valid reason for doing so.

Very often ATC will route you to a fix that is in accordance with the needs of ATC. Routing gets ammended all the time. It may be ammended for traffic flow, radar outages, weather, or a number of other reasons. You may or may not be informed for the purpose of the rerouting (whereas you should be informed in the case of a vector).

If you lost comm in IMC in this situation I'd just ignore this and fly the normal lost comm routine and then call ATC after I landed and then tell them what happened. This seems like a hole in your clearance that might void it.

Are you suggesting that you would make up your own clearance? That you would accept a clearance and then disregard the clearance? That you're going to lose your IFR clearance by adhering to it?

There is no "hole" in an IFR clearance, particularly when you proceed as cleared. If you are cleared to a point in space, ATC expects you to go there. You are not expected to hold at that point indefinitely. If you are going to experience a fuel issue by proceeding to that point, then you have a potential emergency on your hands; you need to fly the routing in the event of a lost communications situation that will preserve the safety of the flight. However, if that is not an issue, then you should refrain from altering the clearance or making up your actions as you go. If your clearance has been ammended, then what you received for a clearance before is irrelevant. You have a new clearance. Fly it.

As always, if you get to visual conditions, stay visual and land as soon as practical and inform ATC of your status.

 

[TurboS7]

Just land anywhere, hand in your certificates to the FAA. Go enjoy island living for a year. Return reinstate your certificates and carry on with life.Hopefully your company will go along with a LOA and let you keep your senority.

 

[Snoopy58]

For those who haven't seen it or don't have it in front of them, the MITTS arrival has routings for ALL FOUR RUNWAYS at LAX. You can fly the arrival to any of them. The text on the arrival says IN THE ABSENCE OF OTHER INSTRUCTIONS to procede via the routing to 25L.

If they tell you "MITTS arrival 24R" or "expect 24R" or whatever, then you fly that part of the arrival routing... the last fix on the arrival routing for each runway is the first fix of the ILS to that respective runway.

If ATC tells you to expect 24R & you lose com, you're going to surprise somebody bigtime if you to revert to 25L based on the note on the STAR! He's got space for you in the lineup to the north side, not the sourth side, and he will NOT be happy with a lost com jet leaving its slot & using the runway that already has airplanes lined up for it!

Think of the note on the STAR as an "expect 25L until you're assigned or told to expect another runway." Clear?