Question about FDC NOTAMs over Power Plants

[UALHammer]

Does anyone know the exact restrictions you need to maintain from powerplants to comply with FDC NOTAM 1/3352 and 3/1665? (I've copied them below).

I've asked with the folks at the Cleveland FSDO what proximity means, and they don't know. They were not familiar with the NOTAM or who polices them.

We're part of a global flight experiment studying atmospheric qualities from the US through Europe. We are tasked, along with other aircraft, to track emissions from several powerplants through the atmosphere as they progress downwind and upward into the atmosphere. No one can give us an answer to how close is "Proximity" or "Vicinity."

If you're curious http://www.al.noaa.gov/ICARTT/

I can't get an answer from the Fed's so I thought I'd ask you guys.

Thanks in advance.

UALHammer

!FDC 1/3352 FDC ... SPECIAL NOTICE ...
FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE,
PURSUANT TO 14 CFR 99.7, SPECIAL SECURITY INSTRUCTIONS, OPERATIONS
WITHIN THE TERRITORIAL AIRSPACE OF THE U.S. THIS IS A RESTATEMENT
OF A PREVIOUS ADVISORY. PILOTS ARE ADVISED TO AVOID THE AIRSPACE
ABOVE, OR IN PROXIMITY TO, SITES SUCH AS NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS,
POWER PLANTS, DAMS, REFINERIES, INDUSTRIAL COMPLEXES, MILITARY
FACILITIES AND OTHER SIMILAR FACILITIES. PILOT SHOULD NOT CIRCLE AS
TO LOITER IN THE VICINITY OF SUCH FACILITIES.


!FDC 3/1655 FDC ...SPECIAL NOTICE... FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS.
EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE, PURSUANT TO 14 CFR
SECTION 99.7, SPECIAL SECURITY INSTRUCTIONS, PILOTS CONDUCTING
FLIGHT OPERATIONS WITHIN THE TERRITORIAL AIRSPACE OF THE U.S. ARE
ADVISED TO AVOID THE AIRSPACE ABOVE OR IN PROXIMITY TO ALL NUCLEAR
POWER PLANTS. PILOTS SHOULD NOT CIRCLE OR LOITER IN THE VICINITY OF
SUCH FACILITIES. PILOTS WHO DO SO CAN EXPECT TO BE INTERVIEWED BY
LAW ENFORCEMENT PERSONNEL AT THEIR DESTINATION AIRPORT AND THE
PILOT'S NAME MAY BE ADDED TO THE TRANSPORTATION SECURITY
ADMINISTRATION (TSA) INCIDENT REPORTING SYSTEM.

 

[pilotman2105]

I've asked with the folks at the Cleveland FSDO what proximity means, and they don't know. They were not familiar with the NOTAM...

Now that is some hilarious stuff right there. Whoever posted it before was right. You just can't make up crap like this.

We're part of a global flight experiment studying atmospheric qualities from the US through Europe. We are tasked, along with other aircraft, to track emissions from several powerplants through the atmosphere as they progress downwind and upward into the atmosphere. No one can give us an answer to how close is "Proximity" or "Vicinity."

Good luck. As a bare minimum talk with ATC the whole time that you're doing your tests. Prior arrangement with the supervisors of the various powerplant facilities would probably also be in order. A call to the FSDO explaining your situation would also be advisable.

And while you're at it, brush up on your intercept procedures.

 

[ATCER]

First a list of things NOT to do... Do not circle a power plant, especially VFR, you WILL be scrambled on. Do not fly from plant to plant, even if you are not circling, VFR low and slow, whatever. Use common sense, unfortunately the type of flying you want to do falls under right under the suspicious activities list...

My $.02 ... pilotman2105 is 100% on the money... at a bare minimum be in contact with ATC. The FSDO may be out of their league on this, you have to work it out with the facility who owns the airspace you want to be flying in. You mentioned Cleveland FSDO so I'll assume Clevelend ARTCC, and this might even be something the is handled at the regional level.

Do you work for NOAA or are you a contractor doing the flying for them ??? You really want prior approval for something like this. I would start by having someone official contact ZOB (Cleveland ARTCC), explain who you guys are, what you would like to do, where you want to do it, and who should you speak with.

Here is the FAA page for ZOB ~> http://www.faa.gov/ATS/aglzob/zobartcc.htm

There is contact info on there.

Good Luck and keep us updated. Let me know if you need any further information.

 

[pilotman2105]

The FSDO may be out of their league on this...

Just for some clarity on my part. Wouldn't it be FSDO writing the violation if something like this happened? Or are we talking higher up in the food chain (TSA, FBI, etc.)? That's why I suggested talking to the FSDO.

 

[BoDEAN]

I suggest not flying directly over the plant or circling it like it says...

It's probably a good idea to let the FSDO know or the power plant...its a legit operation so I don't see why they would have a problem with giving you priviledges...but then again..it is the TSA...

IF you are under radar contact, you should have no problems.
I've flown over a few, VFR, on cross countries, and been fine. They "DON'T" want you doing maneuvers over them (ie. steep turns, turn around a point, etc etc) That is when you seem suspicious

 

[pilotman2105]

IF you are under radar contact, you should have no problems.
I've flown over a few, VFR, on cross countries, and been fine. They "DON'T" want you doing maneuvers over them (ie. steep turns, turn around a point, etc etc) That is when you seem suspicious

Read the rest of the thread. They're talking about maneuvering over and around powerplants, flying directly between them, etc.

 

[ShawnC]

ATCER,

Are there any exemptions for gliders on the NOTAM, because I know when the original power plant NOTAM was issued, they quickly issued that circling for a glider is considered a normal operation.

I can't find it anymore (the SSA changed their page), though I would think that it would still be valid, since they (the FAA) simply said that circling is a normal operation for a glider.

 

[UALHammer]

ATCER,

We've coordinated with ATC months in advance for the type of flying we're doing. I talk with an ATC supervisor of the area we are operating before each flight.

My concern is that one hand of the government doesn't know what the other hand is doing. ATC may say one thing, while the FAA or TSA or FBI may be thinking another.

We are not flying over any power plants. We approach them once or twice during a 6 hour flight and get no closer than about 3 miles downwind from the stacks. We are on an IFR flight plan, and always in communication with ATC. We are in the area (within 30 nm) of these plants for over 5 hours a day. I just can't seem to get anyone to tell me how close is too close, and what is considered loitering.

I'm a civilian contractor flying a US Navy aircraft in support of this mission.

I appreciate your input, thank you.

UALHammer

 

[ATCER]

Just for some clarity on my part. Wouldn't it be FSDO writing the violation if something like this happened? Or are we talking higher up in the food chain (TSA, FBI, etc.)? That's why I suggested talking to the FSDO.

I agree with you're thinking about the FSDO... BUT, circling a power plant will surely run higher up the food chain... Here in NY ANY suspicious activity around anything, especially a powerplant, and your getting scrambled on. An active scramble then involves the big boys (FBI, TSA, etc.) After they determine that it's nothing major it might get kicked to the FSDO for the penalty phase or something. I couldn't guess how in the loop the FSDO's are to these things... knowing the FAA they might not tell them much.

ATCER,

Are there any exemptions for gliders on the NOTAM, because I know when the original power plant NOTAM was issued, they quickly issued that circling for a glider is considered a normal operation.

I can't find it anymore (the SSA changed their page), though I would think that it would still be valid, since they (the FAA) simply said that circling is a normal operation for a glider.

Honestly... I dunno... I have no idea about gliders. Do you have a transponder ??? if we see a 1200 code circling a landmark or something, and we're not talking to you... you're getting a visit in the air.

ATCER,

We've coordinated with ATC months in advance for the type of flying we're doing. I talk with an ATC supervisor of the area we are operating before each flight.

My concern is that one hand of the government doesn't know what the other hand is doing. ATC may say one thing, while the FAA or TSA or FBI may be thinking another.

We are not flying over any power plants. We approach them once or twice during a 6 hour flight and get no closer than about 3 miles downwind from the stacks. We are on an IFR flight plan, and always in communication with ATC. We are in the area (within 30 nm) of these plants for over 5 hours a day. I just can't seem to get anyone to tell me how close is too close, and what is considered loitering.

I'm a civilian contractor flying a US Navy aircraft in support of this mission.

I appreciate your input, thank you.

UALHammer

You're doing things textbook on the way they should be done... you should be fine. I understand your fear about one hand not knowing what the other is doing... it happens, but as long as you're talking to ATC and we know you're OK, then things sould be fine. If anyone calls (and there are a lot of eyes watching the skies) we can confirm that you are a friendly...

 

[Wang Chung]

I've been flying aerial survey for about a year now, and we're in the middle of an 11-state contract (among other projects) that takes us all over the place. We've done survey runs in close proximity to nuke plants and ATC almost never hassles us when we're under flight-following.

Not a big deal unless you are loitering around, I guess.

The only time I remember having trouble with a plant was when we were working near the Davis-Besse plant between Toledo and Cleveland. We weren't super close to the plant, but ATC kept breaking us off our lines to keep us away. We landed and contacted the security office at the plant to coordinate our work; they asked us the usual questions like the nature of our project, airplane type and characteristics, contact info, etc. They gave us the green light and told us they would call TOL approach and advise that we were approved to do our work. They alluded that they would have a spotter on the ground watching us.