Question about airport ops

[mocaman]

Today I was taking an instrument flying lesson with a new instructor, and I was at the hold short line waiting for an aircraft on final. I did my run-up, and waited for the aircraft on final to touch and go. The aircraft touched down and applied power, It was about 5 seconds until the aircraft was airborne again, I decided to taxi into position and wait for the aircraft to climb out. As soon as I applied power to cross the hold short line the instructor stomped on the brakes and started yelling "What are you doin?" over and over again. Well I felt stupid and said that I was just taxiing into position. She said NO NO NO! This happened at an uncontrolled field. To make a long story short, the plane that just touched down was still on the runway (almost in the air again) and I decided to taxi out on the runway. Was I wrong for doing that?? Thanks

 

[TonyC]

Was I wrong for doing that??

I don't think so - - I would have done the same thing.

Since she (the instructor) said NO, NO, NO!, ask her (the instructor) to explain to you what you did wrong, and ask her (the instructor) to cite the regulation she uses to support her (the instructor's) position. As long as you're paying her (the instructor), she (the instructor) can be expected to offer instruction.


(I am assuming for the sake of the discussion that there were no mixed communications signals issues at work here, i.e., "NO" means "yes," "Don't! Stop!" means "Don't Stop!", etc.)

 

[PacoPollo]

Today I was taking an instrument flying lesson with a new instructor, and I was at the hold short line waiting for an aircraft on final. I did my run-up, and waited for the aircraft on final to touch and go. The aircraft touched down and applied power, It was about 5 seconds until the aircraft was airborne again, I decided to taxi into position and wait for the aircraft to climb out. As soon as I applied power to cross the hold short line the instructor stomped on the brakes and started yelling "What are you doin?" over and over again. Well I felt stupid and said that I was just taxiing into position. She said NO NO NO! This happened at an uncontrolled field. To make a long story short, the plane that just touched down was still on the runway (almost in the air again) and I decided to taxi out on the runway. Was I wrong for doing that?? Thanks

thats the problem right there!

 

[Whiskey Tango]

I don't really see a problem with the situation. If the plane in front of you is airborne and the two are the same type ie 172's then there really in no problem with spacing because even if the put it back down on the runway because of an emergency they will be far enough down the runway that you can either abort your takeoff or fly over them. I advocate that you should not position and hold at an uncontrolled field. But as long as you made sure final was clear and you made a call I don't see a problem. I think you should ask your instructor what she felt was wrong with your actions.

 

[PropsForward]

Nothing wrong with what you did. This is a common and safe practice. It is even done at controlled airfields (when ATC clears). I would throw out a radio call that you are taxing into position behind the "warrior" (or whatever it is). And of course the standard clearing of the approach end.



Sounds like your instructor needs to take some anger management class. It baffles me how many instructors feel the need to yell at their students; where did this come from.

 

[vetteracer]

(I am assuming for the sake of the discussion that there were no mixed communications signals issues at work here, i.e., "NO" means "yes," "Don't! Stop!" means "Don't Stop!", etc.)


ROTFLMAO



This is common, at tower controlled airports, you will be asked to "position and hold" as the aircraft on the field is rolling out.

Ask HER to explain her position in greater detail.

That is the part of instruction that I hated the most, every instructor I went up with had there own "rules and how to do this and that". I had to remember all of them so when I flew with that particular instructor I did things their way.

Mark

 

[mattpilot]

to be honest... i would of told her where to shove it (or maybe not??? ).


Assuming she isn't the only instrument instructor in your area, i would of cancelled the flight right there just for yelling like a biatch. You don't need to take squat from anyone. That would of been a nice lesson for her.


As for "Was I wrong for doing that?? "

Hell no! Aircraft passed you and final is clear - go ahead and position and hold on the runway until you feel you have adequate seperation for take-off.

 

[Tooslow]

I would have done same thing! No Problem except for the instructor.................

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Find a new instructor, This one sounds like she is lacking in knowledge and experience.

Unless there is some piece of info that you left out I cannot find a problem with what you did.

 

[skootertrash]

One thing to keep in mind. If you are pos and holding you cannot see behind you. I would have told you differently however I still think I would have waited until the other a/c was clear to ensure no one else was on final. I understand there would have only been a minute or less, however this would be the safest approach.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

don't women always mean yes even though they say no?

 

[AVI8V1]

I tend to agree with scootertrash.

or maybe you started to taxi without even giving consideration (in her opinion) to visually clearing the final. Sometimes I would notice my students doing this when they were amped to get up. I never let them continue to taxi onto the active without checking final thoroughly.

If you don't like her yelling at you then either find a more emotionally sensitive instructor or don't do nutin dumb.

as a side note: the uncontrolled airport that I fly at has a remark in the A/FD "no position and hold".

 

[AVI8V1]

Ieven if the put it back down on the runway because of an emergency they will be far enough down the runway that you can either abort your takeoff or fly over them.

why not just wait? Especially when teaching a student.

PropsForward says:"This is a common and safe practice. 
It is even done at controlled airfields (when ATC clears)."

Yes, it is common and safe at controlled fields because the tower controller is watching your six. ATC will tell you where traffic is (this does not clear you of any responsibility to visually clear) and may even order an extended downwind or call the base for the aircaft in the pattern. At uncontrolled fields it is not as common or safe.

I've taken a skybolt (no radio) from midfield downwind to the numbers in a short time, not nearly enough time for you to wait ON THE RUNWAY for someone to turn crosswind (or whatever you space with), meanwhile causing me to fly out to east bumblefukc waiting for you or forcing a go around which jams me up the other guy's a$$.

 

[PropsForward]

I've taken a skybolt (no radio) ........ meanwhile causing me to fly out to east bumblefukc waiting for you or forcing a go around which jams me up the other guy's a$$.

yeah, no radios is always fun. I have had on more than one occassion had to take the bumblefuke route while trying to figure out what the heck the feller not talking is doing / or going to do. Just part of the fun of aviation...

 

[JimNtexas]

"position and hold" is considered harmful at uncontrolled fields, I've heard of checkride busts for doing it.

On the other hand, slowly taxing out behind a touch and go isn't really a horrible thing to do.

I do think that getting upset like that is unprofessional and counter to good teaching practice.

 

[PropsForward]

"position and hold" is considered harmful at uncontrolled fields

Well this can be a can or worms. I do understand what you are saying. You want to discourage someone from taxing out and waiting for another airplane that may end up taking their sweet time to taxi of the runway or take off again.

In my little bit of experience, you usually get a pretty good feel for the pilot in the other aircraft from their communications and behaviour to know if they mean business, or if it is a new or rusty pilot that is going to (and has been) taking their time.

On the other hand, slowly taxing out behind a touch and go isn't really a horrible thing to do.

See, you even have a feel for it. It is fairly easy. We are both doing basically the same thing, getting ready to go fly and not expecting a delay once lined up and ready to go. Perfectly safe.

I did quite a bit of flying at an airport that did not have taxi ways, and did have intersecting runways. And that opens up a whole new can of worms (multipile aircraft back taxing, using intersecting runways because the feller on the other runway is in Sunday pilot mode, etc)

Anyways, back on topic. To make a short story longer, what I am trying to say is there are other reasons to taxi and hold; such as a host of student training activities (short field t/o, multiengine power up, multiengine failure on takeoff roll), stop and go's for night currency, herd of deer crossing the runway, etc.

 

[mocaman]

Thanks guys for the replys, I was one millisecond away from telling her "This flight is over". I will not be going back to her EVER. Its funny because she is a Gold seal, master Cfi with over 8,000 hours. I would think she would have a method of communicating that is humane and professional down by now. Some of the other posts were wondering if I left out anything... I told the story exactly how it happened. I scanned the pattern and final as always thoroughly and was ready to make my radio call, but in the blink of an eye she stomped on the brakes, and started yelling. She hit the brakes so hard I thought the prop was going to hit the ground. Ohh well, she is the owner of the flight school. If anything, I want to walk away from this and learn something. Thanks everyone for the insights!

 

[mattpilot]

she is the owner of the flight school

In that case... disregard my advice

 

[IFlyGC]

Just out of curiosity, what airport was this at?

 

[RightPedal]

You may find that at the moment her mind was somewhere else and you startled her when you powered up.
I didn't read the entire thread so I don't know the specifics of the flight. I would go talk to her. Let her know that you didn't think that you were doing anything wrong. Has she ever briefed you on what she expects of her student in this scenario? Another thing is to make sure she understands that she may be the boss of an instruction flight, but it's your money. Tell her if she ever howlers at you again, you'll pinch-twist her nipple and give her something to howler about.
Good luck.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

I will not be going back to her EVER. Its funny because she is a Gold seal, master Cfi with over 8,000 hours.

No offense to all the flight instructors reading this, as I feel instructing is a well respected, noble profession and some instructors are probably happy doing it for the rest of their lives. However, the next logical career move for all of the flight instructors that I've ever known have been the regionals, corporate or 135 charter. Regardless if she is the "owner" of this flight school, there must be something wrong with her or her abilities if she's still instructing after 8000 hours!! Maybe she enjoys it, I can't imagine why, but I personally couldn't handle instructing much more than 1000 hours. If she's screaming at her students over stupid things, she's probably crabby, frustrated at her situation and just lacks the patience to continue instructing after 8000 hours. IMO, screamers like her won't make it in a crew environment and that's probably why she's still instructing.

 

[avbug]

Yes, it is common and safe at controlled fields because the tower controller is watching your six.

No, no, NO! The controller does not have your "six." You have your six. See and avoid. Not controller-see-and-you-avoid.

Your responsibility, your life.

Unless I can assure that final is clear and will remain so, and unless I have a strong reasonable expectation to be going quickly, I don't accept a position and hold. I've seen traffic cleared on top of me too many times, and on others too many times.

Treat being on the runway like a loaded weapon. Weather you're taxiing on it, positioning to hold on it, landing on it, or taking off on it. When you're in position to hold, you can't see behind you, and you may well have traffic landing on you. A common clearance is position and hold, with traffic behind you on the approach. You're expected to be up and gone before the other traffic arrives, but what if you're not? It happens. All too frequently.

Never rely upon the radio to find traffic for you. That includes the fishfinder in your cockpit. You find traffic. Don't let the controller do it for you, and don't rely on the controller to prevent you from having a traffic conflict. We partner with the controller in many cases, and there are certainly times when we can't see and avoid traffic due to visibility, clouds, darkness, and speed. But we put ourselves in that position when we could otherwise see the traffic, by assuming the controller will "keep our six" as we position and hold.

While admittedly an aside, I'm always amazed by the pilots who won't turn on all their lights any time they enter a runway environemnt. I turn on strobes, taxi lights, landing lights, recognition lights, logo lights; whatever is out there to turn on, I turn on. Let the world know I'm there, and I'm not proud about it. Landing traffic or departing traffic might miss me, taxiing traffic may do the same. I want to be seen. I've heard too many misers out there who tell me that they don't need a landing light for takeoff in daylight, or for landing in daylight in VMC. The strobe ought to be enough. Or don't need the strobe. That's what the beacon is for.

It's a big sky, but a small runway. All the traffic in the world is headed for that runway, that same small bit of concrete. Better the devil you let them know you're there, and don't occupy it for any longer a time than you need. Whatever you do, don't ever assume that the controller has your "six," especially while sitting on the runway awaiting a clearance to do something else.

 

[TonyC]

No, no, NO! The controller does not have your "six." You have your six. See and avoid. Not controller-see-and-you-avoid.

Your responsibility, your life.

Unless I can assure that final is clear and will remain so, and unless I have a strong reasonable expectation to be going quickly, I don't accept a position and hold.

I'm curious. How does that conversation go, the one that begins with "Taxi into position and Hold" and is followed by "ERRR, Negative tower, I'll just hold right here so I can keep an eye on final."?

 

[minitour]

I always thought Tower's job was to ensure spacing/sequencing of arriving / departing traffic.

If they aren't there to provide spacing and sequencing, then why have them? We can kill ourselves without any help from Tower.

-mini

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

I always thought Tower's job was to ensure spacing/sequencing of arriving / departing traffic.

If they aren't there to provide spacing and sequencing, then why have them? We can kill ourselves without any help from Tower.

-mini

Tower has several different functions, but one of tower's main jobs are managing traffic. As pic, the responsibility comes down to you, regardless if the field is tower controlled or not. Do you fully trust tower when they clear you to taxi into "position and hold"? That clearance shouldn't mean for you to blindly taxi out there, it should mean that you're now cleared to taxi onto the active, after you've checked final first. It just takes a few seconds to scan and make sure final is clear. There's a 99.999% probability that nobody will be on final and you can get away without looking, but that's a chance I will never take. Controllers are human too and mistakes have happened.

 

[AVI8V1]

.....

 

[AVI8V1]

No, no, NO! The controller does not have your "six." You have your six. See and avoid. Not controller-see-and-you-avoid.


I think you are quoting me,but do not cherry pick, here is the entire quote from my original post (emphasis added)...


Yes, it is common and safe at controlled fields because the tower controller is watching your six. ATC will tell you where traffic is (this does not clear you of any responsibility to visually clear)



Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[JRSLim]

She said NO NO NO!

Hey, I think I know her...

By the way, was it by any chance 28 days since she last yelled at you?

...I'm here all week. I'll agree, doesn't sound like you did anything out of bounds, just make sure you look up final and self announce..