Quality of logged hours

[Archer]

Something that I've been reading in many "building time" threads is that peopel say a good way to build time is for example fly as a safety pilot of an instrument student, especially those doing instrument training in multi-engine airplanes.

Now...I know you can build hours in a couple hundred ways. You can go rent an airplane, and fly with friends. You can flight instruct Private students, Commercial student, Instrument, Multi engine...you can fly as a safety pilot...etc...

now, when you apply for a job, you say for example:

3000 TT
2000 PIC
1000 multi
200 turbine

Now...say you have logged 150 of those "PIC" hours as a safety pilot...is that really PIC?

Or say you logged 250 hours PIC when you were flying dual for advanced ratings on x/c trips with a CFII or MEI for example...where you both logged PIC...is that really PIC?

I mean, I know no matter what type of flying, it is always SOME kind of an experience...but I'm sure there are some logged hours more valuable than others...

I'm sure flying 100 hours "PIC" safety pilot is not the same as flying 100 hours PIC on your own, renting an airplane, where you are the ultimate one responsable for the safety of the airplane and yourself...

so, what's the deal with PIC, and "building time"?

Archer

 

[bigD]

150 hours of "PIC" time as safety pilot probably won't bother anyone if the applicant has 2000 of PIC overall. If 1500 of that is saftey pilot time, THEN it might be an issue!

As long as you don't let the saftey pilot time dominate your logbook, I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Archer]

I guess that's some kind of experience too right?

kind of CRM? basically at that point the plane becomes a two crew plane...as one controls it, yet the other watches out for traffic and other hazards...so without one of the two, the pane couldn't fly...

never thought of it that way...I take that back, safety pilot can be good experience...

but other "PIC" like dual training...with a CFI next to you who could save the day...

Archer

 

[bigD]

Safety pilot time is what you make of it. I know plenty of pilots that just sit in the right seat and not pay any attention to what the actual PIC is doing, let alone make a real effort to see and avoid other aircraft.

On the other hand, you can choose to take an active part in the cockpit duties (just make sure you arrange with the PIC exactly what your duties will be before hand - don't just start grabbing at things!), as well as pay attention to the IFR procedures that the PIC is going through during the flight. There's a lot you can learn. Of course, never forget what you're really there for - watching for other planes!

 

[Archer]

So basically you can either just look out for traffic, or you can share the tasks in the cockpit as a two crew team...

I guess if the safety pilot is IR, then he could participate a lot more that just looking out for traffic...

depends if the PIC wants to train for IFR, and just wants a traffic watch...or wether they are two pilots who want to prepare for multi-crew operations and want to start early and do just that...CRM.

Archer

 

[CatYaaak]

<<...Now...say you have logged 150 of those "PIC" hours as a safety pilot...is that really PIC?

Or say you logged 250 hours PIC when you were flying dual for advanced ratings on x/c trips with a CFII or MEI for example...where you both logged PIC...is that really PIC?

I mean, I know no matter what type of flying, it is always SOME kind of an experience...but I'm sure there are some logged hours more valuable than others...

I'm sure flying 100 hours "PIC" safety pilot is not the same as flying 100 hours PIC on your own, renting an airplane, where you are the ultimate one responsable for the safety of the airplane and yourself...

so, what's the deal with PIC, and "building time"?>>

bigD gave you great answers, but I'll add that I think you may be too quick to undervalue this PIC time. As far as the FAA is concerned, if a non-instrument rated student is under the hood, you become PIC because you are shouldering responsiblity. You have to, because the student is not rated for the act of flying without visual reference. If something happens during that flight such as a near-miss, loss of control, or wandering into off-limits airspace while the other guy is under the hood, you are not immune to FAA enforcement action. In other words, the true measure of "Is it really PIC time?" is whether or not you are putting your certificate at risk while acting in that capacity. You are most definitely putting it at risk, and THAT fact is your answer to anyone who doesn't consider those hours to be "real" PIC time. Someone who didn't, in fact, I wouldn't trust to act as a safety pilot.

Don't fool yourself into believing that while the other non-instrument rated guy is under the hood, that you aren't, as you said, "the ultimate one responsible for the safety of the airplane and yourself". As far as the FAA is concerned, you most certainly are, and that's why it goes into your logbook that way.

As for the hours during advanced ratings with an instructor; yes, it is really PIC. Just make sure you also log that PIC time under "Dual Received" for the purpose of differentiating it for someone if they ask. I remember one airline that did specify that you not include any " PIC dual recieved" time in the PIC column, but only one. This harkens to the military concept that only one person can be the "aircraft commander", but it's mis-applied concept if used in the civilian world because the FAA doesn't see it that way. The previous reason is valid here also; if you are building cross-country time in an aircraft you are already rated for with a PIC-logging instructor onboard, you are still open to FAA certificate action if something goes awry. You can BOTH be held accountable, because while the instructor is held to a higher standard of responsiblity by virtue of his/her certificate, the mere fact an instructor is onboard doesn't magically cause your responsiblity to evaporate.

Here's a scenario. A private pilot rents an aircraft to go joy-riding, and asks a friend of his to go along just for fun. No safety pilot status or anything like that, but this particular friend happens to hold an ATP. Also along for the ride are two non-Pilot friends sitting in the back. The Private Pilot is listed as the PIC on the flight plan. During the course of the flight, they aren't paying attention, talking about women, and wind up thoughtlessly wandering right smack dab through the middle of Class B airspace, 2000' over Newark, LaGuardia, and Kennedy.

At this point (if they indeed live), we know the Private Pilot is screwed as far as his certificate. But my question is, what do you think the FAA will do to the ATP if they find out he was onboard, and sitting idle as 777's and whales were whoosing by?



Archer

 

[Timebuilder]

For some carriers, the most weight is given to PIC time as defined under FAR 1. As bigD suggested, you don't want safety pilot time to dominate your logbook, in that case.

As CatYaak says, take an active role, and guard your certificate by not letting things go bad. No matter what the airline interviewers say, if you are there in the airplane the FAA will find a way to hold you at least partially responsible.

 

[dmspilot00]

Re: Re: Quality of logged hours

As far as the FAA is concerned, if a non-instrument rated student is under the hood, you become PIC because you are shouldering responsiblity. You have to, because the student is not rated for the act of flying without visual reference. If something happens during that flight such as a near-miss, loss of control, or wandering into off-limits airspace while the other guy is under the hood, you are not immune to FAA enforcement action.

It doesn't matter whether the person under the hood has an instrument rating or not. That person may be be instrument rated and just wanted to practice some approaches. No matter who you are, if you're wearing a hood, there has to be a safety pilot. The FARs state that NO person may operate an aircraft under simulated instrument flight without a safety pilot.

Personally, I am planning to use safety pilot time to build time in order to meet the Commercial cert. requirements (I'm Part 61... need 250 hours... can't afford that!), but, I don't think one should use it in order to build time for the purpose of meeting requirements for a job.

Also note that the safety pilot does not have to be PIC, but can be SIC.

 

[Archer]

because at that point the airplane becomes a multi-crew airplane right? So, which one is it PIC or SIC? quite a difference no?

Lets say you are an Instrument rated Private Pilot, and just fly with friends for fun, and have build up 600 hours like that on Piper Warriors, Archers, Arrows, 172s, 182s, maybe a couple Bonanzas and Mooneys...the common singles in other words...so you got 600 TT, say 250 complex, 400 of those hours PIC, 40 actual instrument, 400 x/c time....etc...

now lets decide you want to go professional. So at 600 hours, with no multi time, you can't do squat. So you have to add some CFI time and get some multi time.

Well, lets say you instruct for another 600 hours...so you got 1200 TT. Now you are very lucky, and there is a job of air-taxi with a Cessna 206.

Will you qualify? In other words, those 600 hours before you became a CFI (forgot to add some 100 hours for getting Commercial and CFI) are they valuable enough to get a job? All that time spent in single engine piston airplanes?

So basically, getting a multi, even as a Private, would be beneficial in case you decide to go pro right? say you want to gain some experience, and wait to get the multi until you got 300 hours tt. So then you start flying multi with friends...and build up say 100 hours multi piston...and obviously that's soo much more valuable...

well basically...for those (like me) who might one day (maybe right after college) switch to pro flying...what would be the best "type of hours" so that when you have some 1200 hours tt, it's useful for companies and they can hire you...rather than saying "You got 1200 hours of single engine piston, we need multi time, we need turbine time, we need more night flying, more actual instrument...etc"

and for instrument hour requirements...do they count simulated instrument?

Archer

 

[skydiverdriver]

I think you are getting WAAAAY ahead of yourself. Perhaps you should concentrate on becoming a pic before you worry about such things. You will learn a lot during your training, and you ask good questions, but most will be answered automatically as you gain experience. So far I've seen you ask about instrument training, multi training, becoming an airline pilot, turbine time, and now PIC time. I know that you are having fun learning so much, but I would suggest you do a bit of reading before you ask so many questions. Good luck to you.