PVD closed: Aircraft slid off runway

[LowlyPropCapt]

Note: Remember Captains that these 300hr guys are flying under YOUR CERTIFICATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What he said!

The cockpit isn't a democracy. It is all well and good for an FO to learn how to handle dicey conditions, but never be afraid to let them just watch. I personally feel no temptation to let things get even remotely scary for the sake of training. Captain's authority has been eroded enough without us feeling we are obligated to allow the FO's to fly in conditions they may or may not be prepared for.

NOT THAT I AM SAYING THIS HAPPEND HERE! I am speaking only generally. None of us were in the cockpit of that CRJ that night, and I don't have the faintest idea what really occurred. I am just happy everyone got away unscathed. Good luck to the crew invovled and I hope they keep thier heads up... This can happen to anyone, so be careful!

 

[WSurf]

Sucks for the crew. But as the wx shows - fairly benign conditions. That said, IF it was a low time FO - this is probably not an approach he should be shooting. Like with everything else, you have to work your way down with practice and experience. Most importantly to me as a CA is IF it was an unstable approach, the CA should have taken the controls and bugged out to shoot another one. Bad approach leads to bad results, go missed so the FO can learn from the experience and the a/c remains airworthy for its next leg.

Hell, just hit App Mode on the Autopilot and let that bably fly the ILS to 200ft. You can then jocky the power and act like your doing something. It would be so much more easier for you new guys.

 

[LearLove]

my following comment is not refering to the awac incident on this thread per say:

I see many of you guys commenting on not letting low time guy shoot the approach to min or when the wx is down. in my exp from the left seat I havent had a problem with this but the opposite - not that I'm perfect but I can't seem to get an FO that can shoot a decient VISUAL approach (curving base to final or some fashion there-of). Sometimes it is downright scary. These guys that can't shut off the AP/FD/AT and fly a visual need to rent a 150 or 172 and do some laps around the local field.

Like i said, no ref to AWAC and I don't want to sound like Mr. sky-king prefecto CA, but just what I've seen from the left seat as of late. Inst stuff=great, visual stuff=need improvement. and now that I said that all my vis apps for the next month will blow.

 

[BoilerUP]

LearLove, I think what you mentioned is true of most folks that haven't been flying professionally, not just low-timers.

Instrument procedures are repetitively drilled during all levels of training, especially at 121 carriers. I think this is partially because even the best simulator visual can't accurately reproduce the nuances of a true visual approach, especially a complicated one like the Expressway Visual at LGA or the River Visual at DCA. Because of this, many don't know the limitations of the airplane (or themselves) during a slam-dunk or simple things like the 3:1 rule for visual descents.

Even with previous turbine experience I freely admit in my first couple hundred hours in the CRJ I was hesitant to turn off the FD and "fly the damn airplane" on a visual approach, but after I got through that brief learning curve I preferred to turn everything off away from the airport. Not because I have hands of gold (a few AWACers are nodding their heads in agreement with that statement) but because I knew "doing some of that pilot sh!t" would keep my skills from atrophying any further.

Captains, please encourage your FOs (even those low-time ones) to hand-fly the farking airplane on decent weather days, and even *gasp* hand-fly a raw data approach when the wx isn't too low. Give them feedback and advice on maneuvering in the pattern on a visual approach if you can tell they need it. To a few it may be annoying, but IMO you'll be doing 99% of them a favor in the long run.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Have you guys flown with the FO who tries to fly a visual with the autopilot? That's one hell of a mess. Then the AP comes out and it's all downhill from there. No idea how to get the airplane on the ground without triggering the GPWS and becoming unstable (sometimes wildly).

So, there you are, oscillating up and down toward the runway. Can you just imagine what will happen now:

1. You call for a go-around. Chances are if they can't handle the airplane on an approach, the go-around is going to be a huge disaster.

2. You take the controls and go around yourself. Don't expect any callouts, thrust setting, FCP changes, gear or flap operation. Just expect a stunned lump of meat already fuming from their ego being crushed.

Nice options, eh?

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Have you guys flown with the FO who tries to fly a visual with the autopilot? That's one hell of a mess. Then the AP comes out and it's all downhill from there. No idea how to get the airplane on the ground without triggering the GPWS and becoming unstable (sometimes wildly).

So, there you are, oscillating up and down toward the runway. Can you just imagine what will happen now:

1. You call for a go-around. Chances are if they can't handle the airplane on an approach, the go-around is going to be a huge disaster.

2. You take the controls and go around yourself. Don't expect any callouts, thrust setting, FCP changes, gear or flap operation. Just expect a stunned lump of meat already fuming from their ego being crushed.

Nice options, eh?

Been there! Even in the Dash, I have seen many-a-new guy try to do visuals on the autopilot. Not a good idea. Thier brains just don't work fast enough yet to figure out the right rates of decent and so forth.

The Expressway at LGA and the River Visual in DC examples given by BoilerUp are spot on. With the new guys I try to show them two things:

1. You gotta plan it... REALLY PLAN IT... Before you fly it (i.e. I want to be at X altitude at Y point configured at Z speed etc.).

2. You can fly looking outside! It is amazing, but true! Sure, use the flight instruments to verify the aircraft's performance (especially at night!) but get your head up and out of the airplane. Make the airplane fly the track through the sky that you planned to begin with.

Oakum mentioned that some of this might be hard on the new guy's ego. That's ok. I remember my first airline job, and the knocks I recieved there have served me very well (and I needed them, too). Better hurt the ego now than inhibit the ability to stay alive later.

 

[FastJP4]

The 3-1 rule and that fancy gadget called a VSI work wonders when utilized.

 

[Kaman]

Funny that you mentioned it, but I just rode in the jumpseat of an airplane into PVD and the F/O used the AP for a visual approach! Hey, could be their SOP to use it to a certain altitude/distance. I don't know for sure, but it seems like more trouble than it's worth.
As for the weather...You have got to be kidding me if anyone thinks thats anything but typical for PVD this time of the year! 300/1 is freaking VFR for a 121/35 operation or at least it shouldn't be a big problem. I won't even comment on what happened until the NTSB report is out.
Best way to learn how to do a visual approach is to leave the AP off in good weather and learn to hand-fly! Simple enough if you fly the 1900 anyway.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

 

[AWACoff]

I have flown a few go arounds in my time at AWAC that were single pilot due to a lump of meat in the right seat. It's not a big deal to do a single pilot go around. What is a big deal is talking about the situation over a few cold ones on the overnight when everything has calmed down. We ALL messed up when we were new. Instead of Great Lakes, Colgan, etc... AWAC (and other jet regionals) is now the first gig for a lot of low time newhires. Show them the ropes. Most will come around eventually.

 

[Kaman]

Hello,
Very good points raised by LowlyPropCapt! It is very important to the overall skill set of any pilot to fly by purely ground reference. Just like when I was an instructor, it is the same with these newly minted, low-time F/Os. Often they fixate on particular instruments and don't look outside AT ALL! I have tried to teach the principles of relative motion, descent/approach planning and visualizing your flightpath. This is especially important on the LGA XWAY 31 visual. The 3-1 rule is also an important concept that really pays big dividends when it is utilized correctly. Another great too is using groundspeed to get a good approximation of what your rate of descent should be to hold the 3:1.
Me? I am NO expert by any means...Just have the experience and have also flown over 3500 hours in helicopters very close to the ground in mountainous terrain on top of my 4000+ of fixed wing time. Unfortunately, many of our neophytes in the right seat aren't given the skill set needed to fly under anything, but a certain set of parameters. Then they are immediatly thrust into the 121 world and there we are today...Relying more on luck than skill...
99% of these folks that are new, and no different than you and I, but they don't have the benefit of instructing, military, 135 single-pilot cargo, etc...that many of you have.
It is my hope that this mishap will lead to a good solid set of lessons learned for all of us.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead