public's perception of CFI pay!!!!!

[avbug]

How long does it take for this "drug" to wear off?

If we enjoy our work are we "drugged?"

Is there some discussion group or anti-drug that can help us seek other forms of employment that are more respectable?

I've been told by inlaws and associates for eons now that flying is not a respectable line of work. Years ago, before I disposed of them, my redneck inlaws howled in loud terms that I should seek employment driving a logging truck, or working on a road crew. Real work, they opined. Stability. None of this dashing off in the night, unpredictable schedules, companies or departments shutting down with a days notice, flying into conditions that made it impossible to get life insurance, and trips to foriegn destinations under less than favorable circumstances. Get out, try something that puts you home every night, something they could understand...stop playing around and see life as it really is.

I've lived out of an airplane for ten months or more at a time. I've got a case full of tee shirts to record the various jobs, trips, visits, whatever. I've missed things I'd rather not miss. But I wouldn't miss what I've done; it's made me who I am. One day it's going to kill me, so say the statistics (which lie). That doesn't bother me; I do my part today, and deal with it tomorrow as yesterday. When I'm gone, nobody will care, and what's written in my logbook will be nothing more than dead weight in a landfill somewhere.

I'm not building a monument for tomorrow. I'm fortunate to be able to do what I do in the here-and-now. There is no dream. There is no drug. It's a job, it's an activity I'm very fortunate, blessed even, to be able to do right now. One might suppose that if it's going to "wear off," it might have done so a decade ago. Or two. But it hasn't. It's a way of life, for which I presume to make no apology.

Nor should there be any apology made for those desiring to pursue the same course. Certainly, let them know what lies ahead, but don't deny them their dreams. Dreams become reality, and there is nothing to fear from reality. If one wants one's reality to be one of fortune-building, then choose another venue, another avenue to fame. Yet if one can survive, make a living in a world where security is a theory and not an actual fact, and still be pleased with one's job, then one is ahead of 99% of the population. So many hate what they do, but make more money.

I, for one, would rather be privileged to fly, even at the expense of nor earning what Harrison Ford or George W Bush, or Donald Trump might, and be grateful for the chance.

If I come back in another life, perhaps then I'll try for a hollow existence seeking fame and fortune. For now, it is still flying and aviation which consumes me.

 

[realityman]

Well put Avbug!! Okay, I'm kind of a lurker here at FlightInfo. Been on this sight a while reading everything that's said, but not posting. Not much here has stirred my passions. But this subject does! If you're young, have the dream to fly, and are motivated, then GO FOR IT!! I did and never looked back! And the rewards have been immeasurable! Avbug's posts on this thread are only the beginning! There's so much more that just can't be put into words.

For ClassG, just so you know, I'm 35, have around 10,000 hours of flight time, fly a Citation X for Netjets (VERY familiar with 14-hour days, trips away from family and friends on holidays and other special occasions, and everything else you mentioned), have been there for about 8 years (another 6.5 years previous to Netjets I was flying charter making a hell of a lot less than Netjets pays!), own two airplanes, and STILL go to bed every night dreaming of flying! Hard to believe you're hearing that coming from one of those contentious Netjets guys, isn't it? But first and foremost, I am flying because it's in my blood. I simply could not do anything else. A few nights ago, I was flying towards Kansas City, our stop for the night. It was dark, quiet. In front of us we could see a glow that didn't appear to be city lights, moonlight, or a nuclear mushroom cloud. It was the Aurora Borealis!! It was mesmerizing watching those lights dance! And how rare to see them so far south and early in the season. As we descended into MKC the Aurora faded out to the stronger lights from below. And as we landed I realized that no one on the ground could see the amazing display taking place right over their heads! What a rare and wonderful treat! All brought to us from........FLYING!!!!
And the places I've gone. WOW! The people are a special and wonderful breed (except for the few truly jaded pilots out there who would discourage a young person from following their heart) who have helped me numerous times when it was needed, but never asked for.

Okay ClassG, I can hear it coming now. "That sounds wonderful", you'll say, "but does seeing the Aurora from FL390 put food on the table, pay the bills, or put your kids through college?". The short answer, no. My paycheck does. Point to you. BUT, when I reach the end of this crazy ride we call life, I want to look back and remember all the EXPERIENCES I had, the places I visited, the people I interacted with, the things I witnessed that few others have (good and bad, it's all part of life), and the adventures I've been on. Flying has brought that to me (and still is!).The size of my house or car really won't matter. Heck, just coming up in the ranks, "paying my dues, as it were", has been a life adventure I wouldn't trade for anything! Learning to fly provided me with something new and exciting almost every single day. Flight instructing honed my people skills, knowledge level, and let me scare myself enough to figure out what doesn't work. Flying charter took me to new horizons, in bigger and faster planes, and let me truly TASTE the world. And now flying for Netjets continues those experiences while introducing me to a new level of security (as much as there is in aviation anyway), and great folks to fly with. THAT, my friend, is what the dream of flying is! If the only thing a young person sees in flying is $$$, then ClassG is absolutely right. Do something else.

I started flying at 15, and 20 years later I still haven't grown tired of it. I look forward to every day where I can climb into my own open-cockpit biplane, or the pressurized enclosed vessel that is the Citation X. Flying is who I am, not just what I do.

Oh, and one more point. There seems to be a general consensus out there that if you really love flying and your job, that you're not interested in money. Why are they mutually exclusive? I look forward to going to work, as I previously mentioned, but I will stand with my fellow NJA pilots to improve the money and work rules over there. That too, is part of the legacy of working in aviation.

For all you people just starting out, GO FOR IT!! And grab your hats and other loose articles, cause it's gonna be a helluva ride!!!

FOLLOW YOUR DREAMS!

 

[bobbysamd]

"I left a good job in the city, working for the man every night and day . . . . "

Apologies to John Fogerty.

[W]hen the drug wears off, I promise you you'll see it differently. I know too many people who have come to that realization. It happens long after the money left over from your $80K a year job has been spent. And the memories of SLAVING at a desk job have finished eating at you. Then there will just be you and the life you have chosen. Wondering if you made the mature, responsible decisions you always tried to convince yourself you have. Or if you traded in what really matters for some PIC time.

I'm sure there are MANY out there who know what I'm talking about. I've spoken to them long and hard on this. My point is simple. If people REALLY know what they're getting themselves into, we won't have so many, so willing to do so much for so little . . . . .

Oh, I dunno about that. I am one. There will always be people who get into aviation because they love flying. That will never change. But, sadly, sometimes reality takes precedence over love.

Aviation was a second career for me. I got into it full-time when I was 37, and I got into it not because of the excellent pay but because I simply loved flying. This was in 1988, when there was a hiring boom (and Kit Darby's proclamation of a "pilot shortage"). I had started flying six years before, to fulfill that lifelong dream, and I found that I really enjoyed flying. At that time, it made no sense to me to work at a job that I disliked. All I ever cared about was to make enough money to eat, be reasonably comfortable, and to pay my bills. My first job was instructing at ERAU. Initially, I took about a $6K pay cut, which may not seem like much to some people, but, for someone earning about $22K, it was substantial. Eventually, ERAU paid me a salary that was more than I ever made in fifteen years of broadcasting and was comparable to commuter captain pay of the day. I was delighted.

As I went on to other jobs, each being worse than the previous, I made less and less money - but still enough to be comfortable, eat and pay my bills. And, I still enjoyed what I was doing. Finally, because of the times and circumstances, and finally realizing I needed a job that paid some money, I left flying. Now, I have a job that pays some money, but it is one that I like far less than flying. Reality is that work does not always equate to fun. I have no regrets because I had some great experiences in aviation. Perhaps I miss those more than the flying and piloting part.


As far as the public perception of flight instructors being highly paid, notwithstanding the foreign airline schools that do pay excellent money, it undoubtedly comes from the airline pilot pay image. In other words, the public thinks that because airline pilots have been highly paid that all pilots are highly paid. It is just ignorance, which the public cannot help. At least some more enlightened members of the public realize that not all pilots are highly paid.

 

[hindsight2020]

So, from what I can take, it has once again come down to the age-old question of: '(1)Would you work at a job that pays well but makes you want to put a bullet through your head every morning on your drive to work OR (2)would you rather pursue your passion and starve'

I'm in the process of figuring out which one to pick myself. Currently playing with the idea of going for the commercial/multi and CFI to jump into the peanut-paying CFI gig albeit with the intentions of keeping my part time retail job hehe. This is after an aerospace engineering degree and a masters on the same (both with honors). Degrees for which I feel (in spite of the sucidide-feeling-producing sacrificies that they imposed) no more sense of satisfaction than the day I finished Super Mario 2 for the 100,000th time (NES, I know but what do you expect on a graduate student salary ...or a CFI it just dawned on me

Is there anyone out there who has been able to compromise? I keep looking at the National Guard gig (my version of the dream) and how that is one good example of being able to get the joy of flying and the flexibility to pursue an additional job (in whatever) to pay the bills. Of course, once again, the question on that one is also how to get THAT freggin job. So far all I've gotten are encore presentations of : !HINDSIGHT2020 IS NOT CONNECTED!

Anybody with opinions about reaching a middle ground? Is it possible? I read this thread thru and between the guy losing the marriage to the selfish pursuit, the starving CFI who was better off driving a boat, and on the other side the guy with the deskjob who seemed 2 microns away from putting a bullet thru his head cause deskjobs really suck (all experiences that I relate to and accept as true ) it all got me depressed to sh!t.

You know, they say its not the #1 guy or the #100 guy in the class but the one in the middle that steals the show, maybe the answer lies in the middle? Any ideas? Happy flying folks

 

[realityman]

Hindsight, despite what you've read on this thread, doing what you have a passion for, even flying, does not necessarily mean you can't make a good living. True, flight instructors make very little. But I have some bad news for you buddy, instant gratification doesn't really exist out there (except maybe if you win the lottery). The vast majority of folks coming out of college, no matter what the field, will start out making peanuts. Yeah yeah, Everybody knows someone who's brother's wife's groomsmaid's gardner came out of college and started at some job somewhere making $50K/year, and was making six figures three years later. Right! Sorry, but generally speaking, that doesn't happen. So no matter what you do, you'll be poor, at least for a short time.

Now, a lot of threads on this site, and even a lot of posts on this thread, talk about poor pay and working conditions in aviation these days. Try to remember, compared to the number of pilots out there, this is a very small group, and people here just like to vent. Flying jobs are really no different from any other field, there are flying jobs that pay well, and some that don't. The trick, like any other field you go into, is to get one that pays well. Yes, a number of major airlines aren't doing so well and many pilots there are taking massive pay cuts and/or looking at the unemployment line. But there are other airlines up and coming that pay pretty well and offer good benefits. There are also quite a few corporate gigs that pay very well and offer good benefits. And don't give up on the fractionals either. We're working hard to make that a great place to work too. You can make a decent living at a number of the freight outfits, and there are even some charter outfits that pay well. I've heard military flying can be pretty cool, and some of it doesn't pay too bad, you just need to be prepared to find yourself being shot at once in a while and sent away from home for very lengthy periods of time.

The point is, good flying jobs are there. You CAN do what you love and make a decent living! But unless you've got conections, you won't start at the top. Once you realize that, it gets easier. And realize that no matter what field you go into, you won't start at the top. Given that reality, I'd rather be doing something I love!

Good luck to you! And I still say FOLLOW YOUR HEART!

 

[NJA Capt]

NetJet crews correct me if I am wrong, but after 5 year FO you go back to 1 YR CPT. Six years or more to break $36K?

You do NOT start over at year 1 pay after x years as an FO. If you are a 4 year FO and upgrade you are paid 4th year Capt pay.

For what it's worth Airlinepilotpay.com, or whatever it is, has the 401K match wrong. The match is 50/50. He prefers to call it 7.5% of salary.

 

[Goose Egg]

Anybody with opinions about reaching a middle ground? Is it possible? I read this thread thru and between the guy losing the marriage to the selfish pursuit, the starving CFI who was better off driving a boat, and on the other side the guy with the deskjob who seemed 2 microns away from putting a bullet thru his head cause deskjobs really suck (all experiences that I relate to and accept as true ) it all got me depressed to sh!t.

Now, remember that I am talking as one of the junior members of the forum, so perhaps I have not had enough time to become sufficiently jaded. However, I think that it is a simple matter of what your expectations are. If you are expecting to make $250k as a senior captain at a major airline, and that is your sole definition of success (which I'm finding to be the case with many of my CFI contemporaries), you are sure to be disappointed. On the other hand, if you are content pulling down a "meager" $75-$100K (a salary which, by the way, is considered to be quite good by a large percentage of the working world) by finding some sort of niche in the aviation world, be it corporate, regionals, or whatever else, then there is plenty of opportunity out there. Just understand that, like any other job worth having, it takes some time to work up to that salary level.



-Goose