Public Perception of Pilot Wages

[urflyingme?!]

Doesn't he work for Kramerica Enterprises?

 

[Q200_FO]

Very good point. Other professions recognize that we have value, why don't we?

Because it's been driven into our heads since day one that we have to start out making nothing in order to get to the top. Our instructors were making nothing when we were getting our ratings so we believed that we have to go through the same crap. It's a vicious cycle and it needs to stop. And it won't stop until all pilots stand up and demand that we are professionals and we deserve to be compensated as such.

 

[Flying Illini]

Because it's been driven into our heads since day one that we have to start out making nothing in order to get to the top. Our instructors were making nothing when we were getting our ratings so we believed that we have to go through the same crap. It's a vicious cycle and it needs to stop. And it won't stop until all pilots stand up and demand that we are professionals and we deserve to be compensated as such.

Good point.

Ok, I propose that on April 1 NOBODY who's main job is to fly, goes to work. That will show the world!
It would be nice if something could be done about the current problem, but I just don't see it happening. Sorry to be the pessimist. There are too many eager pilots out there who are willing to do anything they have to do to get to the top of the mountain...which most people will never reach anyway. It is a vicious cycle.

 

[RJFlyer]

originally posted by enigma
Don't get me wrong, I make a decent living for a working man, but the lifestyle stinks. I'd be happier working locally for a half of my current wage, but being able to sleep in my own bed every night and flying my own Skybolt on the week ends.

Amen, brother!!

 

[414Flyer]

Last year there was a city bus driver's strike in Honolulu. When I told acquaintances I didn't sympathize much since they made more than I (a regional Captain at the time), they too, were in disbelief.

I remember when I was in Hawaii in 99 and they had a dockworkers strike. While the shipping clerks got well over 50K and the dockworkers got around 90K at least, they still struck.

 

[phishn@daves]

Any chance on initiating the largest strike in aviation history?

Take out a full page ad in USA Today listing pay rates so the public really knows what we are getting paid?

I'll start the ball rolling.............I'll let you all know what I come up with!!

I really wish something like this could be done!

Maybe it wouldn't prove a thing however!

 

[secks]

I remember when I was in Hawaii in 99 and they had a dockworkers strike. While the shipping clerks got well over 50K and the dockworkers got around 90K at least, they still struck.

Remember the dockworkers strike on the U.S. west coast a few years ago? The strike was carried out by the ILWU (International Longshore and Warehouse Union). According to the Wall Street Journal, before the strike, the average wage of an ILWU dockworker was $106,000 per year. The ILWU crane operators earned between $180,000 and $250,000 per year. Poor babies. The strike was over automation. The dock owners wanted to automate the checking-in of trucks at the docks. The workers threw a temper tantrum. As a sidenote, docks in Singapore are estimated to be 10 times more efficient than American docks due to automation.

Originally posted by Flying Illini
Ok, I propose that on April 1 NOBODY who's main job is to fly, goes to work. That will show the world!

Yeah, and if you're not careful, your employers might bite back and deal exclusively with non-union pilots in the future. Practically everyone thinks they're underpaid, join the club.

Originally posted by Les Paul
Only you care, so quit worrying about the "public perception" of your pay.

The problem lies with those of you who choose to work for the wages and bennies you get, then come here complaining about it.

Or worse yet, you pay your dues at slave wages, but now you come here complaining about other people who are doing the same thing.

Well said. I don't know why some pilots feel that they should be immune from the free market. Lots of pilots out there, not many jobs. Do the math. Good point regarding the hypocrisy of "paying dues".

 

[Publishers]

Varied

There are such a large number of factors --it is really hard to put them all into a common jar.

Remeber-- there are plenty of doctors, lawyers, and indian chiefs working long hours for terrible wages as part of their chosen career path. If one said he was a doctor, and did not mention he was the senior resident at some teaching hospital, you might assume that he makes a certain wage. Same thing for attornies and other professionals.

There are so many situations in so many parts of the country, it is hard to say what is what anymore. One corporate flight crew I know makes 1/3 more than any others around here because they were hired and came from Southern California when the boss moved. Are they over paid or just lucky.

Airline pay was more a function of regulation followed by deregulation than any other single effect. Unions, what other so called professionals have unions, are another. Railway Labor law is in there. Evolution of the industry another.

 

[Immelman]

Does a resident MD make the same sub-poverty wages like the average CFI? (I honnestly don't know, I'm asking...)..

It seems like something has to snap; a large enough group needs to stand up, say things aren't right, and stand for it. Sure, others may scab the movement, but it won't succeed unless there are sufficient people with the belief behind it.

I'm not talking about making every aviation professional a fat union member like the longshoremen; I'm only talking about a professional wage for a professioal job.

The message can start out simple enough -- public awareness is one (such as the ad suggested showing real pilot wages). Suggesting that aviation customers (airline pax, student pilots, charter customers, etc.) stand for professional wages is a second, more profound step that if executed correctly will make a lot of (mgmt) people upset because the threat of having to pay a real wage will suddenly be real. I'm going to go out on a limb and state that I think that most customers would want to see pilots paid at professional rates, but only if they know the real story about what people take home.

...for example: why not start suggesting that students only give business to a flight school that compensates CFIs fairly? I am way overdue for instrument recurrent training and am planning on getting toegther with a CFI for 2-3 hrs over the next month or so, before choosing a CFI/school I can at least attempt to make sure that they're getting a fair wage. As a renter pilot I cannot afford to fly much, but when I do ride with a CFI I want to compensate him/her as they deserve it. After all, if it now costs $80 to rent a 172 and 99 for the skylane (rates at my local airport), I really don't mind paying more than peanuts for a CFI.

BTW: At the last flying club I was a member of (www.wvfc.org), CFIs were independant contractors who took home 40-60 or MORE per hour (flight and ground time), and had students lined up waiting to pay it! Granted housing costs in the area are sky-high, but a full-time CFI at this club could actually make a decent living.

The idea of all this being that we do live in a free-market capitalist society -- if labor in any industry doesn't make their stand, and encourage customers to vote with their feet, working conditions will suffer.

 

[propdog]

I agree that pilots here are grossly underpaid. I have flown in several countries. I started flying in India and now fly out of US because I am married to an American. Back in India, pilots are treated just like any other highly qualified professional. In fact, a starting FO makes almost five times more than a senior doctor. They pay pilots that high considering the fact that they spend a fortune for flight training, fly muti-million dollar jets, spend a lot of time away from home, job depends on your medical etc. Even flight instructors are paid very high. I know a few who are life time flight instructors. All FOs and Capts I know of in Asia are leading very luxurious lives. Some even stay in five-star hotels instead of apartments!! They could not beleive thet I have a full time flying job in the US and could not even afford good food and board. They expected better conditions for pilots here, as US is far more developed than Asia. I have done flight instruction, 135 and airline flying. The degradation of our profession starts right at the flight school. I have seen many flight instructors giving ground instruction (i include pre/post flight briefings as well) for free. They are worried that the student is already paying a hefty amount for the flight and that they might quit or go to another flight school/instructor if they start charging for briefings. NO...If the student thinks my time is not valuable ...I am NOT going to be his/her instructor. My advice to all flight instructors out there...charge for your time....you are not gonna get a free consultation from your lawyer or doctor...so why should you??? Let the students who want free instruction go somewhere else. At the end of the day you'll make MORE money and work LESS if you do this. Same story with PFT and all that crap. PFT is totally unheard of in many other parts of the world. The key is education... and it should start at the flight school. Wherever there is unity, there is strength. If we pilots don't stand together and fight for our rights and quit stabbing each other in the back by taking every freaking low paying jet job out there...we will always be underpaid.

 

[414Flyer]

I agree with that. There seems to be this dichotomy of "get your first flying job, dont worry about the pay, just get your hours and that first job", followed by "dont lower the bar for others, keep up the brotherhood, demand more pay".

That mindset of getting the job first and then worring about pay later, is faulty and not going to work. As long as there is a strong supply of pilots , of people willing and enthuaistically accepting the low paying jobs, things will not change.

The attitudes of telling students to take that first job, pay be **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed, or that commuter job and dealing with pay issues later, is going to have to change.

You can blame management all you want for offering low pay, but pilots willingly accept those jobs. Other fields do not have those issues, because those people will not accept crappy pay. Once pilots stop jumping at the chance to be minimum wage airline pilots, things will change.

Instead of telling new commercial students to do anything and everything they can to get those hours, how about emphasizing that they are professionals, and that they are worth something. I think this is also a case of the seniority system not helping matters, because it is an extra inducement to take the job right now regardless, rather than sitting it out until pay is increased.