PT6 question

[Nolife]

I've heard from various sources that it bad to start a PT6 in feather. Wondering why? No one seems to have a good answer. Since it's a free turbine how would doing so affect the compressor section?

 

[dougdrvr]

I've heard from various sources that it bad to start a PT6 in feather. Wondering why? No one seems to have a good answer. Since it's a free turbine how would doing so affect the compressor section?

Long time since I've flown behind a PT-6 but we always feathered them on shutdown so you would have to start them that way. I've even started one with a mech holding on to the prop. Are you sure you don't mean the Garrett, 'cause starting them in feather or if they slip off the start locks will definately burn one up.

 

[Nolife]

Feather the pt6 on shut down so the blades stop spinning faster. Conventional start is with props forward and they come out of feather quickly. The only book procedure for starting in feather is when using a GPU, but the question remains... why is it bad to battery start with props feathered when you have a free turbine.

 

[twikysmalls]

Start the 67R every time in feather. Only comes out when ready for taxi, and feathered prior to fuel cutoff.

In fact, I have read quite possibly on this board, that it is bad to start a free turbine out of feather. Doing so would unnecessarily pull oil out of the engine needed for starting into the prop hub.

Perhaps an experienced mechanic could confirm or deny, as I am merely a dumb pilot.

 

[Cardinal]

With the prop levers forward for start, the propellor wont aggressively begin to move out of feather until 40-50% N1 anyway, I'd hope there's plenty of oil pressure/volume by then to multitask. But who knows, certainly not me.

 

[deadstick]

Any KA drivers need to get The King Air Book by Tom Clements. It's priceless. He has over 15,000 in the series and use to work for Beech.

I went checking for the answer. He states that it is no problem starting in feather, but you don't want to idle like that for a long time. The exhaust and heat are not getting dissipated. In the big models, this delay can pose a problem because the blades are pushing that hot exhaust up against the fuselage and the plastic windows.

 

[Nolife]

Thx for the post. I'm going to look for that book.

 

[avbug]

Starting the engine with the propeller controls in feather isn't going to hurt a thing.

 

[A&PMECH]

Hi guys,

 

[skysurfer76]

i second the thought on the heat on the plastic D windows when starting in feather....I have noticed the OAT gauge that sits right below the captains D window will be pegged out with a left cross wind start in feather....the exhaust gas drifts right onto the cabin while in feather....I have heard of it actually melting or disdorting those windows as well..

just my .02 : )

 

[A&PMECH]

Hi all, first post, well second after that screwed up first one.

My PT6 experience comes from working on Piaggio's, so some of the numbers I talk about might not apply to you King Air guys as I've never flown one or worked on one. However, it should all make sense.
When you start a PT6 in feather you put a lot of strain on the starter generator and can run the risk of burning it up, or draining that battery if starting without a GPU. If the engine is started in ground idle, at approximately 47% Ng the GCU will disengage the starter. If you start in feather the chances of actually reaching that 47% are pretty remote, if not impossible.
Secondly, the oil tank is integral to the accessory gearbox. With no oil traveling to the prop hub you create an unnecessary amount of high pressure build up in the accessory gearbox. That in itself, is another reason why it's not a good idea to sit around in feather for long periods of time.
Hope this helps

 

[satpak77]

Hi all, first post, well second after that screwed up first one.

My PT6 experience comes from working on Piaggio's, so some of the numbers I talk about might not apply to you King Air guys as I've never flown one or worked on one. However, it should all make sense.
When you start a PT6 in feather you put a lot of strain on the starter generator and can run the risk of burning it up, or draining that battery if starting without a GPU. If the engine is started in ground idle, at approximately 47% Ng the GCU will disengage the starter. If you start in feather the chances of actually reaching that 47% are pretty remote, if not impossible.
Secondly, the oil tank is integral to the accessory gearbox. With no oil traveling to the prop hub you create an unnecessary amount of high pressure build up in the accessory gearbox. That in itself, is another reason why it's not a good idea to sit around in feather for long periods of time.
Hope this helps

You know, I have never heard of this. Not saying its not true, but with approx 4000 hours in the B-350, and ten years of FlightSafety recurrents at Wichita, etc, I have never heard of this.

When you start the engine, it IS in feather, even if the prop control is full forward per the checklist. It will come out of feather when the engine spools up and comes online, but you are long off the starter switch (and BATT) by then.

Does that make sense? Irrespective of the actual position of the prop control in the cockpit (feather position or full forward), when you climb into a King Air (PT-6 anyway) and start it, the prop is always feathered, period.

So "starting it in feather will hurt XXXX" does not make any sense to me.

High Oil pressure in accessory gearbox? I have not heard of this.

Anyone care to chime in...

 

[rettofly]

My PT6 experience comes from working on Piaggio's, so some of the numbers I talk about might not apply to you King Air guys as I've never flown one or worked on one. However, it should all make sense.
When you start a PT6 in feather you put a lot of strain on the starter generator and can run the risk of burning it up, or draining that battery if starting without a GPU. If the engine is started in ground idle, at approximately 47% Ng the GCU will disengage the starter. If you start in feather the chances of actually reaching that 47% are pretty remote, if not impossible.
Secondly, the oil tank is integral to the accessory gearbox. With no oil traveling to the prop hub you create an unnecessary amount of high pressure build up in the accessory gearbox. That in itself, is another reason why it's not a good idea to sit around in feather for long periods of time.
Hope this helps

SOP in Piaggio is to go right through the FX detent to ground idle when starting. If you need to feather one during taxi with a tailwind to save wear and tear, that's OK, but Beta is Betta, especially on sub-zero days. Keeping them feathered while parked does add to heat buildup.

 

[A&PMECH]

On the P-180 the prop is always in feather on start up as well. However, the King Air has independent fuel control levers. In the Piaggio the fuel control unit and the prop levers are rigged as a single unit condition lever, thereyby eliminating the need for independent fuel levers. When starting a P-180, as said by rettofly, you bypass feather into ground idle. That simultaneously introduces fuel to the combustion chamber, opens the prop governor, and brings the prop to a lower pitch. Fuel scheduling between feather and ground idle is identical (meaning there is no increase or decrease in fuel flow for ground idle and feather), it would start normally in a combustion sense regardless of condition lever position. However, the GCU still wouldn't disengage the starter with the same consistency it would with a normal start. There just wouldn't be enough Ng to do it, if it did make it you would be pressing hard against the 30 second duty cycle limit on the starter. You can manually disengage the starter, but chances are you won't get the engine running to self sustaining speed and will be left with a hung start. With the prop just out there paddling away at feather you're greatly increasing the time it will take to get the engine going. You need the spool up to sustain the start the majority of the time.

Now as far as the high pressure I was mentioning. This was something told to me by a very experienced PT6 mechanic who worked 1900s before he worked P-180s. That was not something I personally have seen, but it made sense to me and that's why I mentioned it. Basically prolonged periods at feather, or starting in feather can result in spikes in oil pressure due to the large quantities of oil in the accessory gear drive that is not traveling throughout the system. However, it's not something I will see on the Piaggio because it's hard on the propellers to have them in feather for to long (excessive heat).

The topic starter asked about how it would harm the compressor section and I don't see any reason why the compressor would be affected. I can see ITT spikes due to the free turbine rotating at a lesser speeds than the power turbine, which can cause poor exhaust scavenging. I have never seen that personally though.

 

[Nolife]

Thx for the responses.

It seems that starting with props forward then feathering after start while waiting for avionics and clearance might be the way to go provided to wait time isn’t too long.

I’m looking for a way to reduce noise and stress on the parking brake while getting ready to taxi.

 

[partypilot1]

You can start a PT6 with the prop levers full forward or in feather. I personally would keep an eye on temps because of airflow over the engine and exhaust are reduced. Watch for possible heat buildup around cabin

 

[satpak77]

Thx for the responses.

It seems that starting with props forward then feathering after start while waiting for avionics and clearance might be the way to go provided to wait time isn’t too long.

I’m looking for a way to reduce noise and stress on the parking brake while getting ready to taxi.

King Air ?

 

[Nolife]

Yes King Air.

 

[satpak77]

Yes King Air.

Some ideas, which I practice, to save the 3 hour (joke but...) time on ramp to run the Beech lawyer-designed checklists (it calls for FLAPS-UP like four times.....)

This is a modified order to the Flightsafety checklist but all items are covered.

1. Get clearance and ATIS via Ground Comm. Tell clearance delivery you will be "ready for taxi in 15 minutes". Set your altimeters now.

2. Get V-speeds before pax show up. You have temp off the OAT gage or off ATIS. You should have rough idea on weight of everybody and fuel, cargo.

3. Engine Start: Start the engines, flip avionics and EFIS on, and while that is coming up, do the engine checks, governor checks, etc. Auto-Feather checks also. Knock out the pressurization checks. Some airports you can't do engine runups on the ramp, so you need to exercise your discretion on this.

4. Avionics and EFIS should be online now, knock out quick AP and Yaw damp checks. Get your VOR's, FMS done. Copilot can also do this on the taxi-out, just don't be #1 for takeoff and have your FMS bungled. I personally don't fly out on the SID/etc via FMS NAV, I use old-school VOR radials until the climb-out, and if everything looks cool, I bring the FMS NAV up. I know Generation-Y doesn't do it that way but it is how I do it. I don't fly with an Ipod either....

Anyway, some ideas for you

 

[Nolife]

Good advice. I have an approved realistic checklist but the problem is the ramp is too congested and small to do run-up items and the FMS and EFIS takes at least 5 minutes to start; goofy Chelton system.

Beech's checklist reads more like an instruction manual, takes way too long to accomplish, and it has too many redundant items. Their "Before Landing Check" takes so long that after you put the wheels down and finish reading it you're pulling up to the gate.

 

[satpak77]

Good advice. I have an approved realistic checklist but the problem is the ramp is too congested and small to do run-up items and the FMS and EFIS takes at least 5 minutes to start; goofy Chelton system.

Beech's checklist reads more like an instruction manual, takes way too long to accomplish, and it has too many redundant items. Their "Before Landing Check" takes so long that after you put the wheels down and finish reading it you're pulling up to the gate.

Yeah it is not fluid or pilot friendly.

 

[wrxpilot]

I personally don't fly out on the SID/etc via FMS NAV, I use old-school VOR radials until the climb-out, and if everything looks cool, I bring the FMS NAV up. I know Generation-Y doesn't do it that way but it is how I do it. I don't fly with an Ipod either....

Anyway, some ideas for you

Why do you not use the FMS for the SID? Not that there's anything wrong with that, I was just curious (always trying to learn something new).

 

[avbug]

When you start a PT6 in feather you put a lot of strain on the starter generator and can run the risk of burning it up, or draining that battery if starting without a GPU.

No, you really don't.

The starter has no idea whether the propeller is feathered or not. The starter is turning the gas generator, NOT the propeller. It's a free turbine engine. Exhausted gasses from the gas generator cause the propeller to turn. The propeller in feather, or out of feather makes no difference to the starter, and a feathered propeller puts no strain on the starter.

One can hold onto the propeller or tie it down,and it won't make any difference to the starter.

This is true on any PT6 installation, and equally true on the Piaggio Avanti as it is on the King Air series.

If the engine is started in ground idle, at approximately 47% Ng the GCU will disengage the starter. If you start in feather the chances of actually reaching that 47% are pretty remote, if not impossible.

Also untrue, as propeller RPM doesn't control Ng RPM during the start process. Again, one can bring the engine online without any movement from the propeller at all (in theory), assuming one can find a means of securing the propeller from movement against the resulting torque.

The gas generator does not require any particular degree of propeller movement or rotation in order to reach a cutout speed or complete the engine start.

Secondly, the oil tank is integral to the accessory gearbox. With no oil traveling to the prop hub you create an unnecessary amount of high pressure build up in the accessory gearbox. That in itself, is another reason why it's not a good idea to sit around in feather for long periods of time.

There is no pressure buildup in the accessory gearbox as a result of operating with the propeller in feather.

 

[satpak77]

Why do you not use the FMS for the SID? Not that there's anything wrong with that, I was just curious (always trying to learn something new).

I fly out of some mountainous areas, at many non-home-base-airports, with a variety of King Airs, and have found that the chance to misprogram the box is greater than if I flew the same bird everyday, out of the same airport, everyday.

Flying a departure at night via FMS, in mountainous terrain, can bite you if the SID doesn't load correctly or they give you a new SID as you taxi to the Hold Short line (South America SOP).

At the end of the day, it works for me.

 

[wrxpilot]

I fly out of some mountainous areas, at many non-home-base-airports, with a variety of King Airs, and have found that the chance to misprogram the box is greater than if I flew the same bird everyday, out of the same airport, everyday.

Flying a departure at night via FMS, in mountainous terrain, can bite you if the SID doesn't load correctly or they give you a new SID as you taxi to the Hold Short line (South America SOP).

At the end of the day, it works for me.

Makes sense to me, thanks.

 

[satpak77]

Makes sense to me, thanks.

No problem amigo

 

[skydivinguy]

A&PMECH, you're new at this right???

"The topic starter asked about how it would harm the compressor section and I don't see any reason why the compressor would be affected. I can see ITT spikes due to the free turbine rotating at a lesser speeds than the power turbine, which can cause poor exhaust scavenging. I have never seen that personally though. "

The free turbine, power turbine is one and the same. Other one is the compressor turbine which of course turns the gas generator.

Doesn't matter where the condition lever is for start or after start as others have pointed out here.

I've held the prop still while the engine was started a couple times, no big deal unless you move the prop, then get out of the way fast!

 

[avbug]

The theory is that one can hold onto the propeller, but even in feather, even at idle, there's significant torque acting on that prop. I've seen people tossed, trying to hang on, and I've seen eyebolts ripped out of cowlings on several occasions when propeller tethers weren't removed prior to the engine start.

 

[CUBMAN]

Starting the 350 the prop levers are forward. As soon as the engine starts turning the oil pressure is building, no problems here. Maybe too much torque but I doubt it. In no time at all the prop is out of feather. On the 1900 there was a limit as to how long the prop could be in feather on the ground due to heating the windows. The Bandierante was the same. I heard a guy say he melted 350 windows because he was sitting still at idle too long. I dont see any problems with the compressor and props in feather. I have held the prop while engine was turning and no ignition for compressor wash. Not a comfortable feeling, just dont let go.

 

[pilothouston123]

Ground ops in feather are bad for: prop blade erosion, engine cooling, FOD ingestion. They are allowed for GPU starting. I just got off the phone with Mr Beech.