Pt. 91 Climb gradient

[Big Picture]

Hi all,

I am new to Flightinfo and thought this might be a good place to gather a little perspective on an issue I'm having.

First, I have just recently left a 7 year career in the regionals and gone to work for a large Pt. 91 company. We have several jets, all Pt. 25 certified.

Now my question. I am curious as to how other pt. 91 departments treat DP climb gradients. The reason I ask is that my dept. takes a very lax attitude when it comes to meeting the gradients on a particular chart. The attitude is literally "if we can make the gradient great, but if not, we don't want to tell the boss we can't go. He might see other jets taking off and wonder what's wrong with us". To me, this is sheer lunacy but it appears that I'm in the minority right now.

Coming from a 121 background where we had to meet the gradient on a net basis, I assumed that there would be a similar rule for pt. 91 operators. Despite searching the FAR's, I have yet to find anything in writing that says we must meet the gradients. And to be clear, I realize that most stated gradients only apply to a certain min vis and ceiling. Above that and it's "see and avoid".

What does everyone think? Luckily, the wx has been good enough for this not to be an issue yet, but I'd like to get this figured out before we head into the winter season.

 

[Lead Sled]

Welcome to the asylum. By any chance do you happen to be flying for a company in the Pacific NW? Give us some specific examples.

'Sled

 

[some_dude]

Not this again! I'm going to try to stay out of this one.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Hi all,

I am new to Flightinfo and thought this might be a good place to gather a little perspective on an issue I'm having.

First, I have just recently left a 7 year career in the regionals and gone to work for a large Pt. 91 company. We have several jets, all Pt. 25 certified.

Now my question. I am curious as to how other pt. 91 departments treat DP climb gradients. The reason I ask is that my dept. takes a very lax attitude when it comes to meeting the gradients on a particular chart. The attitude is literally "if we can make the gradient great, but if not, we don't want to tell the boss we can't go. He might see other jets taking off and wonder what's wrong with us". To me, this is sheer lunacy but it appears that I'm in the minority right now.

Coming from a 121 background where we had to meet the gradient on a net basis, I assumed that there would be a similar rule for pt. 91 operators. Despite searching the FAR's, I have yet to find anything in writing that says we must meet the gradients. And to be clear, I realize that most stated gradients only apply to a certain min vis and ceiling. Above that and it's "see and avoid".

What does everyone think? Luckily, the wx has been good enough for this not to be an issue yet, but I'd like to get this figured out before we head into the winter season.

Please...what "Large PT 91" company acts like this?

do tell.

 

[Big Picture]

Whoops. I didn't realize that the search button only shows up after you log in. I found a great thread which I'll have to digest over the next day or two.

I apologize for being so vague about who and where I work. I've only been employed there for a little over two months and don't want to create too many waves just yet.

Many thanks for the help so far. Looks like this place has a lot of good info.

 

[2EASYPilot]

Not sure what flight planning provider you use but Arinc direct has a good runway analysis program that also provides alternate proceedures for many airports. Might be a good recommendation to the new boss to see how close you really are for some of these problem airports. Remember (I know we have been through this before) legally under under part 91 all that is considered in departure procedures is all engines operating, that's why I like ARINC's program, It lets you know what weights you can do one engine inop and still not hit the rock's !!

 

[HawkerF/O]

Big Picture, you should have looked around here before posting that. I don't know who you work for, but "Spooky Ones" tend to lurk about. Hmmmmmm

Hmmmmmm

Whoops. I didn't realize that the search button only shows up after you log in. I found a great thread which I'll have to digest over the next day or two.

I apologize for being so vague about who and where I work. I've only been employed there for a little over two months and don't want to create too many waves just yet.

Many thanks for the help so far. Looks like this place has a lot of good info.

 

[joevollers]

Big Picture..
Eveyone likes to put two cents in and not toouch the question..Meaning they hopefully Buy performance data from Jepps or some other source..Frighteningly though, I suspect they do not and do not give it much thought..
At the Corporate outfit I was just out we solved the puzzle like this..
standard Ifr terrain separation 200 feet per nautical mile==3.3 degree climb gradient so if it's IMC that's what our single engine performance was = or > in order for us to operate.. If a sid required more you must convert to gradient. But 3.3 is what you need for normal ops without an anlayzed break out procedure
In vmc just make sure you have the min required by the specific make model...

 

[Lead Sled]

I'm not afraid to address the question, I've posted my share on this very topic in the past. I was simply curious as to what company he was referring to. I understand that he is probably retiscent in naming names, but if it's an Oregon based company then I probably know which one he's referring to. If that's the case he's in for a few more surprises. 2EasyPilot hit the nail on the head - DP climb gradients are based on all engines operational regardless as to whether it Part 91, 135, or 121.

The real issue is whether they have a viable "Plan B" (escape procedure) in place in case they loose an engine. This is where resources like Jeppesen's Ops Planning, etc. come into play.

'Sled

 

[HMR]

Big Picture..
Eveyone likes to put two cents in and not toouch the question...

Are you serious?

Run a search on this topic. It's been covered many times with excellent info from Lead Sled, among others.