Psa !

[BTDII]

Now obviously I won't be a Captain right away. I'll have to wait for 44 other guys to accept the job or decline it. The more that decline, the sooner I upgrade.

Silly me, I thought the people that've been here for three years waiting to upgrade had it tough.

Wow.....I can't wait to fly with you!!

Wow......The feelings mutual!!

 

[Long-Gonner]

I think the word will get back to the other furloughees how bad it is at PSA, compared to the plush life at mainline. This will cause most APL pilots to wait for Mid-Atlantic. Thats why I think we will be hiring shortly after the new year.

 

[RUhiring?]

Silly me, I thought the people that've been here for three years waiting to upgrade had it tough.

I'm guessing you're one of those three year FO's.

It's a double edged sword for you....a catch 22. Vote no on J4J and possibly get furloughed. Vote yes, and get the current situation. There isn't anything that can be done at this point, it's already set in motion. I see you have 3000 hours, so I assume you are fairly new at this (3 years or so), perhaps after you've been screwed with for 14+ years you'll begin to realize that getting angry and bitching causes more problems than it's worth. Mainly because nobody listens.

 

[Smoking Man]

RUhiring?

"

 

[BTDII]

It's a double edged sword for you....a catch 22. Vote no on J4J and possibly get furloughed. Vote yes, and get the current situation.

Actually, I'd have been happy with at least a vote. A vote for you to take j4j and shove it where the sun don't shine. I'd have rather shut this place down. You people have no ethics.

There isn't anything that can be done at this point, it's already set in motion

And I'm sure that your just heartbroken about that. Considering that your stealing money from someone else.

I see you have 3000 hours, so I assume you are fairly new at this (3 years or so), perhaps after you've been screwed with for 14+ years you'll begin to realize that getting angry and bitching causes more problems than it's worth. Mainly because nobody listens.

I'm not as new to this business as you would like to think so you could spare me the fatherly advice "Dad". As for the advice you offer, well I see it another way. I won't just bend over and take it. It does'nt matter if anybody listens or not. What matters is the truth be told.

I hope you enjoy your time at PSA, and please, don't give a thought to the contract that was destroyed and the lives that will be affected so that you could sit in that seat ahead of one of our own.

 

[JBL]

BTDII said:

"The short-sightedness or rather lack of vision by the Mainline pilots is what has gotten us into this mess in the first place. Now these "people", for the lack of a better word, are coming here taking jobs that don't belong to them, and I'm supposed blindly trust these "people" if he/she ends up holding office on our property? Pleeeeaaaasseee.........! Once they're in office, whats to stop them from changing j4j and taking every d@mm job from the PSA pilots? I say to he!! with'em. They don't belong here and in my opinion they don't deserve to vote!"


Wow. Where to start?? First, let me say that I was a Jetstream/PSA First Officer for 3+ years making 20 something thousand a year so I know where you're coming from. After 5 years at PSA, I got hired by USAirways. I've lived both sides of this argument so hear me out.

First, by saying "short-sightedness" and "lack of vision" by the "people" at mainline, I assume you're referring to the fact that the wholly owneds were scoped out of RJ's for FAR too long. I agree. And it may surprise you to know, but allot of senior mainline pilots that I've worked with share the same point of view. The RJ is a necessity to remain competitive...the sticking point was and always will be the outsourcing of flying (i.e. jobs). The same strong feelings you have about J4J guys "taking every d@mn job from the PSA pilots" are the same feelings that the mainline guys have/had about RJ's taking over old mainline routes. Both sides are right and both sides are wrong. Let's leave it at that and focus on the issue at hand.

One reality of being a wholly owned airline is that the money flows from above. In my opinion USAirways was never going to spend the money to buy the wholly owned jets when the contract carriers would do it for them. 9-11, downsizing, management changes, and furloughs have all changed the tide and now USAirways has decided to include PSA RJ's in the turnaround process. A condition of getting the jets was that half of the seats must be staffed with mainline furloughees. If your airline doesn't like these conditions, mainline puts their money to use elsewhere (Man is that a flamebait sentence if I ever wrote one !! Please, put the torches down for a second...) When I left PSA in 1999, we had around 25 airplanes and I was in the 80's on the seniority list. I would be in the 40's today. What's my point? Stagnation is my point. A small fleet with no growth is just that. Now, here's an opportunity to more than double the size of your airline, increase the pay (I know..I know..B scale...) , and give those who are hoping to move on in the future some jet experience for their resume's...all the while keeping your seniority number INTACT. It does not and should not matter whether or not the pilots junior to you came from USAirways. Mark my words, not one J4J guy is gonna take a job from one current PSA pilot. They can't. Before J4J, the jobs DIDN'T EXIST. Now if the issue is bypass or pay protection, take that up with PSA ALPA. The mainline "people" had nothing to do with that.

I guess, I'm just having a hard time understanding this line of thinking. Some (not necessarily you BTDII-no attacks here) PSA pilots would have rather voted on/turned down the J4J thing, stayed at 25 or so airplanes, and took their chances instead of doubling the airline, increasing pay, and adding 300+ pilots BELOW them on the seniority list?!?! Call me silly, but in 15 years of flying I've learned one thing...senority is EVERYTHING. Trust me...I know, I was a mere 1400 or so numbers junior from holding onto my mainline job Maybe the point is the feeling of entitlement. The current PSA pilots feel entitled to a seat in the jet. Well, guess what...every single PSA pilot WILL get a seat in the jet. Will some PSA guys get stuck as F/O's while J4J guys get the left seat? Yes. This was the deal agreed to. No J4J, no new jets and no growth. As sh!tty as it is, had J4J NOT been agreed to, those same guys would have been stuck as F/O's in the 328 anyway- probably for allot longer and at lower pay. I'm not trying to paint those pilots as expendable or sacrificaial lambs, and I did say it was sh!tty, but I feel that's what would have happened.

Bottom line, getting pissed at the mainline furloughees will solve NOTHING. They're coming as a result of a management/ALPA agreement that they had nothing to do with. Getting furloughed instills a whole new appreciation for the little things...like employment. One can't truly comprehend what I mean until it's experienced. Just be glad you're getting planes, are employed by a company that's in a growth period, and live life.

As Dennis Miller says, "that's just my opinion...I could be wrong." Good luck.

B.

 

[Smoking Man]

WOW

.

 

[RUhiring?]

Well now I've learned something. After having heard from the other Express carriers about being able to vote on the J4J issue, I was not aware that the pilots of PSA did not get to vote. I think, from what I've now read, that the PSA MEC did the voting. I agree with you, it was not right to bypass the member ratification process.
That being said, I don't believe that I could express my point of view any better than JBL did.

 

[Dashcaptain]

It is fun to read the arguments you guys have back and forth. At Allegheny and Piedmont, we have agreed to the j4j program and all we are getting is furloughed. So complain all you want. We furloughed aroung 28 pilots yesterday at Allegheny. If things don't change from what we have been told, we will be down to around 16 Dash 8s by the end of next year. Good luck to you guys with the training in the rjs. If I am lucky, maybe I can give up more than 5 1/2 years of seniority and start over at PSA. No offense, but that does not appeal to me right now. What kind of game is this?? We gave up more than 10% with all the concessions and have received absolutely nothing in return. Very frustrating to say the least.

 

[Bluestreaker]

It's the game of... You should have drank the cool aid before we did.

 

[BTDII]

JBL,

That was an insightful post with many valid points, but I don't feel that your able to see the full picture. You did however manage to make your points without emotion or insults so I'll try to do the same. Since this is an emotional subject for me though, I'll apologize now if I offend you.

You said, "Mark my words, not one J4J guy is gonna take a job from one current PSA pilot." This statement is incorrect. Jets for Jobs does exactly that. The only reason that no PSA pilot is on the street at this time is because PSA is "SUPPOSED" to get 60 planes. If PSA were to lose all the 328's and get just 30 RJ's(essentialy, replace our current fleet) we would end up putting 150+ people on the street so that mainline furloughees could have our jobs. Since you were former PSA how would you like that situation if you were still here? Meanwhile Mesa and others were already flying RJ's, why did'nt you try go after their current fleet like you went after ours. Wait I don't want to personalize it, when I say "you" I'm really talking about your group of pilots, not you personally. Just wanted to get that out of the way. Anyway, can you see my point? Essentially your MEC created a flow down when none existed and we as a pilot group were not allowed to even have a say it. Whats worse is that our MEC knew how bad of a deal this was and did'nt even try to negotiate anything better or at least more fair. All of this is a very hard pill to swallow.

Now to go back a little bit, I used the word "SUPPOSED" and the reason for the emphasis(sp) on that word is due to the fact that in the SEC paperwork that Airways filed it goes on to talk about how the restructuring plan may not work and how getting all these RJs may not happen. So PSA or any other WO'd for that matter may verywell end up with just a few jets and POOF, our jobs would be gone to the furloughees.

Next you said this, "Some (not necessarily you BTDII-no attacks here) PSA pilots would have rather voted on/turned down the J4J thing, stayed at 25 or so airplanes, and took their chances instead of doubling the airline, increasing pay, and adding 300+ pilots BELOW them on the seniority list?!?! "

Staying at 25+planes is better than giving your job away. There is no gaurantee that we would have doubled our fleet when j4j was agreed to. So Yes when it came time to decide, I would have choose to take my chances on the 328. With concessions, the pay increase is a few dollars and what good is 300 people below me when if we furlough half of our pilots would have to go anyway.

Then you said, "Call me silly, but in 15 years of flying I've learned one thing...senority is EVERYTHING." Well your right senority is everything except when you give it away. Since the planes are coming to our property, what gives the Mainline pilots the right to those Captain seats? Just because they were Mainline pilots is not good enough. The quicker most Mainline people realize that they are indeed a Wholly-Owned as well the quicker this feeling of entitlement they have for our seniority list will disappear. I have no problem giving them the right seat, but j4j gives them the world, and why, because they were Mainline? Thats wrong on every level.

Let me give you this example. Lets say that ALG, PDT, and PSA were to all of a sudden start to furlough and lose planes at an alarming rate. Then Mainline starts getting Dash 8's, 328's, and RJ's. With those planes they start flying PIT to CRW all day long, obviously doing Express type flying. Would Mainline give us the same Props for Jobs deal? Let alone with half the Captain seats? I think you and I both know the answer to this. And thats the point, the flying and the jobs are just as much ours as they are yours, yet your MEC holds all the cards and we are left to be slapped in the face, all for the good of the Mainline Pilot.

Then to top it off, and this is where most of my anger toward the Mainline guys comes from, I get some of you guys talking about how in the next 5 years it'll be the ones that are on furlough now who'll be incharge of the MEC and things will change. Stuff like that drives me crazy cause you people know for a fact that if your group of furloughees were all for change, they would try now by doing the right thing and advocating the changing of j4j to more fair solution for all involved. Well I don't see that happening, but what I do see is most of you talking the talk but walking the road of the old b@stards before you. You know that street right? The "I Got Mine Now Go Get Yours".

You know what I had more to say, but I'm just gettin all worked up again so I'm just gonna stop here. But before I go I just want to say that I am 100% for a Unified Front Between Mainline, ALG, PDT, and PSA, but its increasingly hard to feel that way when NoOne at Mainline will stand up and do the right thing.


"You May Be Right, I May Be Crazy" Billy Joel

 

[BTDII]

It is fun to read the arguments you guys have back and forth. At Allegheny and Piedmont, we have agreed to the j4j program and all we are getting is furloughed. So complain all you want. We furloughed aroung 28 pilots yesterday at Allegheny. If things don't change from what we have been told, we will be down to around 16 Dash 8s by the end of next year. Good luck to you guys with the training in the rjs. If I am lucky, maybe I can give up more than 5 1/2 years of seniority and start over at PSA. No offense, but that does not appeal to me right now. What kind of game is this?? We gave up more than 10% with all the concessions and have received absolutely nothing in return. Very frustrating to say the least.

The only thing I could ever say to any of our Wholly Owned Brothers and Sisters is I'm sorry that the PSA Pilot Group was not strong enough to stand up to our own leadership. I belive we let you guys and gals down in that one instance where we could have all "held the cards" for a change and for that I will always be ashamed.

 

[RUhiring?]

Let me give you this example. Lets say that....Mainline starts getting Dash 8's, 328's, and RJ's. With those planes they start flying PIT to CRW all day long, obviously doing Express type flying.

This is a good place to bring up a point that has not been raised (lately). The route PIT-CRW, along with many many others similar to this, had been flown by mainline for several decades before the express carriers became the only ones to provide that service. So the way I, and many other mainline pilots, see this is that they are mainline routes that have been taken over by the regionals. That type of switch has resulted in the loss of hundreds of jobs and millions of dollars to mainine pilots. So my only point here is to take exception to someone who says that we as mainline pilots are taking jobs away from Express pilots. You have to go back to the beginning and see where those jobs were in the first place.

I have bills to pay just like eveyone else. I'd be happy to pass on this J4J thing if BTDII would let my family and I move in with him. The only problem is that there are guys standing in line to take my place, and that wouldn't help BTD at all.

Neither I or BTD were given the opportunity to vote on the particulars of J4J. It was all done by people who "represent" us. I don't like being perceived as the bad guy. I think that management loves this type of stuff because they always want to create a division amongst union members. In this case, management must be loving it because the division is being created for them.

I only hope that when the time comes for us to fly together, all of this is left to discuss,and react to, out of the cockpit.

 

[d328pilot]

I get tired of hearing that this use to be mainline flying. If we cannot fill up a Dornier on a route, then why should the company be forced to fly a mainline jet? The company's purpose is not to give us all jobs, it is to make money. People are not flying like they use to. I remember when they had an F100 from TYS to CLT. There was never more than 50 people on it. Those jobs to not belong to any pilot group, they belong to the company.

 

[NCFlyer]

When a mainline pilot starts to complain about how years ago the Express companies started taking "their" flying I like to ask:

How many mainline pilots lost their jobs when some of "their" original flying was transferred to the Express companies?

Their answer is always NONE.

Although some might add "that there could have been many more "mainline" jobs if the Express companies hadn't taken "their" flying.

Which is pure speculation at best.

Also, it doesn't matter how many "mainline" jobs you have if the company can't/isn't making any money.