Psa !

[JBL]

BTDII said:

"The short-sightedness or rather lack of vision by the Mainline pilots is what has gotten us into this mess in the first place. Now these "people", for the lack of a better word, are coming here taking jobs that don't belong to them, and I'm supposed blindly trust these "people" if he/she ends up holding office on our property? Pleeeeaaaasseee.........! Once they're in office, whats to stop them from changing j4j and taking every d@mm job from the PSA pilots? I say to he!! with'em. They don't belong here and in my opinion they don't deserve to vote!"


Wow. Where to start?? First, let me say that I was a Jetstream/PSA First Officer for 3+ years making 20 something thousand a year so I know where you're coming from. After 5 years at PSA, I got hired by USAirways. I've lived both sides of this argument so hear me out.

First, by saying "short-sightedness" and "lack of vision" by the "people" at mainline, I assume you're referring to the fact that the wholly owneds were scoped out of RJ's for FAR too long. I agree. And it may surprise you to know, but allot of senior mainline pilots that I've worked with share the same point of view. The RJ is a necessity to remain competitive...the sticking point was and always will be the outsourcing of flying (i.e. jobs). The same strong feelings you have about J4J guys "taking every d@mn job from the PSA pilots" are the same feelings that the mainline guys have/had about RJ's taking over old mainline routes. Both sides are right and both sides are wrong. Let's leave it at that and focus on the issue at hand.

One reality of being a wholly owned airline is that the money flows from above. In my opinion USAirways was never going to spend the money to buy the wholly owned jets when the contract carriers would do it for them. 9-11, downsizing, management changes, and furloughs have all changed the tide and now USAirways has decided to include PSA RJ's in the turnaround process. A condition of getting the jets was that half of the seats must be staffed with mainline furloughees. If your airline doesn't like these conditions, mainline puts their money to use elsewhere (Man is that a flamebait sentence if I ever wrote one !! Please, put the torches down for a second...) When I left PSA in 1999, we had around 25 airplanes and I was in the 80's on the seniority list. I would be in the 40's today. What's my point? Stagnation is my point. A small fleet with no growth is just that. Now, here's an opportunity to more than double the size of your airline, increase the pay (I know..I know..B scale...) , and give those who are hoping to move on in the future some jet experience for their resume's...all the while keeping your seniority number INTACT. It does not and should not matter whether or not the pilots junior to you came from USAirways. Mark my words, not one J4J guy is gonna take a job from one current PSA pilot. They can't. Before J4J, the jobs DIDN'T EXIST. Now if the issue is bypass or pay protection, take that up with PSA ALPA. The mainline "people" had nothing to do with that.

I guess, I'm just having a hard time understanding this line of thinking. Some (not necessarily you BTDII-no attacks here) PSA pilots would have rather voted on/turned down the J4J thing, stayed at 25 or so airplanes, and took their chances instead of doubling the airline, increasing pay, and adding 300+ pilots BELOW them on the seniority list?!?! Call me silly, but in 15 years of flying I've learned one thing...senority is EVERYTHING. Trust me...I know, I was a mere 1400 or so numbers junior from holding onto my mainline job Maybe the point is the feeling of entitlement. The current PSA pilots feel entitled to a seat in the jet. Well, guess what...every single PSA pilot WILL get a seat in the jet. Will some PSA guys get stuck as F/O's while J4J guys get the left seat? Yes. This was the deal agreed to. No J4J, no new jets and no growth. As sh!tty as it is, had J4J NOT been agreed to, those same guys would have been stuck as F/O's in the 328 anyway- probably for allot longer and at lower pay. I'm not trying to paint those pilots as expendable or sacrificaial lambs, and I did say it was sh!tty, but I feel that's what would have happened.

Bottom line, getting pissed at the mainline furloughees will solve NOTHING. They're coming as a result of a management/ALPA agreement that they had nothing to do with. Getting furloughed instills a whole new appreciation for the little things...like employment. One can't truly comprehend what I mean until it's experienced. Just be glad you're getting planes, are employed by a company that's in a growth period, and live life.

As Dennis Miller says, "that's just my opinion...I could be wrong." Good luck.

B.

 

[Smoking Man]

WOW

.

 

[RUhiring?]

Well now I've learned something. After having heard from the other Express carriers about being able to vote on the J4J issue, I was not aware that the pilots of PSA did not get to vote. I think, from what I've now read, that the PSA MEC did the voting. I agree with you, it was not right to bypass the member ratification process.
That being said, I don't believe that I could express my point of view any better than JBL did.

 

[Dashcaptain]

It is fun to read the arguments you guys have back and forth. At Allegheny and Piedmont, we have agreed to the j4j program and all we are getting is furloughed. So complain all you want. We furloughed aroung 28 pilots yesterday at Allegheny. If things don't change from what we have been told, we will be down to around 16 Dash 8s by the end of next year. Good luck to you guys with the training in the rjs. If I am lucky, maybe I can give up more than 5 1/2 years of seniority and start over at PSA. No offense, but that does not appeal to me right now. What kind of game is this?? We gave up more than 10% with all the concessions and have received absolutely nothing in return. Very frustrating to say the least.

 

[Bluestreaker]

It's the game of... You should have drank the cool aid before we did.

 

[BTDII]

JBL,

That was an insightful post with many valid points, but I don't feel that your able to see the full picture. You did however manage to make your points without emotion or insults so I'll try to do the same. Since this is an emotional subject for me though, I'll apologize now if I offend you.

You said, "Mark my words, not one J4J guy is gonna take a job from one current PSA pilot." This statement is incorrect. Jets for Jobs does exactly that. The only reason that no PSA pilot is on the street at this time is because PSA is "SUPPOSED" to get 60 planes. If PSA were to lose all the 328's and get just 30 RJ's(essentialy, replace our current fleet) we would end up putting 150+ people on the street so that mainline furloughees could have our jobs. Since you were former PSA how would you like that situation if you were still here? Meanwhile Mesa and others were already flying RJ's, why did'nt you try go after their current fleet like you went after ours. Wait I don't want to personalize it, when I say "you" I'm really talking about your group of pilots, not you personally. Just wanted to get that out of the way. Anyway, can you see my point? Essentially your MEC created a flow down when none existed and we as a pilot group were not allowed to even have a say it. Whats worse is that our MEC knew how bad of a deal this was and did'nt even try to negotiate anything better or at least more fair. All of this is a very hard pill to swallow.

Now to go back a little bit, I used the word "SUPPOSED" and the reason for the emphasis(sp) on that word is due to the fact that in the SEC paperwork that Airways filed it goes on to talk about how the restructuring plan may not work and how getting all these RJs may not happen. So PSA or any other WO'd for that matter may verywell end up with just a few jets and POOF, our jobs would be gone to the furloughees.

Next you said this, "Some (not necessarily you BTDII-no attacks here) PSA pilots would have rather voted on/turned down the J4J thing, stayed at 25 or so airplanes, and took their chances instead of doubling the airline, increasing pay, and adding 300+ pilots BELOW them on the seniority list?!?! "

Staying at 25+planes is better than giving your job away. There is no gaurantee that we would have doubled our fleet when j4j was agreed to. So Yes when it came time to decide, I would have choose to take my chances on the 328. With concessions, the pay increase is a few dollars and what good is 300 people below me when if we furlough half of our pilots would have to go anyway.

Then you said, "Call me silly, but in 15 years of flying I've learned one thing...senority is EVERYTHING." Well your right senority is everything except when you give it away. Since the planes are coming to our property, what gives the Mainline pilots the right to those Captain seats? Just because they were Mainline pilots is not good enough. The quicker most Mainline people realize that they are indeed a Wholly-Owned as well the quicker this feeling of entitlement they have for our seniority list will disappear. I have no problem giving them the right seat, but j4j gives them the world, and why, because they were Mainline? Thats wrong on every level.

Let me give you this example. Lets say that ALG, PDT, and PSA were to all of a sudden start to furlough and lose planes at an alarming rate. Then Mainline starts getting Dash 8's, 328's, and RJ's. With those planes they start flying PIT to CRW all day long, obviously doing Express type flying. Would Mainline give us the same Props for Jobs deal? Let alone with half the Captain seats? I think you and I both know the answer to this. And thats the point, the flying and the jobs are just as much ours as they are yours, yet your MEC holds all the cards and we are left to be slapped in the face, all for the good of the Mainline Pilot.

Then to top it off, and this is where most of my anger toward the Mainline guys comes from, I get some of you guys talking about how in the next 5 years it'll be the ones that are on furlough now who'll be incharge of the MEC and things will change. Stuff like that drives me crazy cause you people know for a fact that if your group of furloughees were all for change, they would try now by doing the right thing and advocating the changing of j4j to more fair solution for all involved. Well I don't see that happening, but what I do see is most of you talking the talk but walking the road of the old b@stards before you. You know that street right? The "I Got Mine Now Go Get Yours".

You know what I had more to say, but I'm just gettin all worked up again so I'm just gonna stop here. But before I go I just want to say that I am 100% for a Unified Front Between Mainline, ALG, PDT, and PSA, but its increasingly hard to feel that way when NoOne at Mainline will stand up and do the right thing.


"You May Be Right, I May Be Crazy" Billy Joel

 

[BTDII]

It is fun to read the arguments you guys have back and forth. At Allegheny and Piedmont, we have agreed to the j4j program and all we are getting is furloughed. So complain all you want. We furloughed aroung 28 pilots yesterday at Allegheny. If things don't change from what we have been told, we will be down to around 16 Dash 8s by the end of next year. Good luck to you guys with the training in the rjs. If I am lucky, maybe I can give up more than 5 1/2 years of seniority and start over at PSA. No offense, but that does not appeal to me right now. What kind of game is this?? We gave up more than 10% with all the concessions and have received absolutely nothing in return. Very frustrating to say the least.

The only thing I could ever say to any of our Wholly Owned Brothers and Sisters is I'm sorry that the PSA Pilot Group was not strong enough to stand up to our own leadership. I belive we let you guys and gals down in that one instance where we could have all "held the cards" for a change and for that I will always be ashamed.

 

[RUhiring?]

Let me give you this example. Lets say that....Mainline starts getting Dash 8's, 328's, and RJ's. With those planes they start flying PIT to CRW all day long, obviously doing Express type flying.

This is a good place to bring up a point that has not been raised (lately). The route PIT-CRW, along with many many others similar to this, had been flown by mainline for several decades before the express carriers became the only ones to provide that service. So the way I, and many other mainline pilots, see this is that they are mainline routes that have been taken over by the regionals. That type of switch has resulted in the loss of hundreds of jobs and millions of dollars to mainine pilots. So my only point here is to take exception to someone who says that we as mainline pilots are taking jobs away from Express pilots. You have to go back to the beginning and see where those jobs were in the first place.

I have bills to pay just like eveyone else. I'd be happy to pass on this J4J thing if BTDII would let my family and I move in with him. The only problem is that there are guys standing in line to take my place, and that wouldn't help BTD at all.

Neither I or BTD were given the opportunity to vote on the particulars of J4J. It was all done by people who "represent" us. I don't like being perceived as the bad guy. I think that management loves this type of stuff because they always want to create a division amongst union members. In this case, management must be loving it because the division is being created for them.

I only hope that when the time comes for us to fly together, all of this is left to discuss,and react to, out of the cockpit.

 

[d328pilot]

I get tired of hearing that this use to be mainline flying. If we cannot fill up a Dornier on a route, then why should the company be forced to fly a mainline jet? The company's purpose is not to give us all jobs, it is to make money. People are not flying like they use to. I remember when they had an F100 from TYS to CLT. There was never more than 50 people on it. Those jobs to not belong to any pilot group, they belong to the company.

 

[NCFlyer]

When a mainline pilot starts to complain about how years ago the Express companies started taking "their" flying I like to ask:

How many mainline pilots lost their jobs when some of "their" original flying was transferred to the Express companies?

Their answer is always NONE.

Although some might add "that there could have been many more "mainline" jobs if the Express companies hadn't taken "their" flying.

Which is pure speculation at best.

Also, it doesn't matter how many "mainline" jobs you have if the company can't/isn't making any money.

 

[RUhiring?]

I get tired of hearing that this use to be mainline flying. If we cannot fill up a Dornier on a route, then why should the company be forced to fly a mainline jet?

Who said a mainline jet has to be a F100 or bigger?
They could have just as easily put the CRJ200 on the U operating certificate and made it another bid option for mainline pilots.

 

[RUhiring?]

When a mainline pilot starts to complain about how years ago the Express companies started taking "their" flying I like to ask:

How many mainline pilots lost their jobs when some of "their" original flying was transferred to the Express companies?

Their answer is always NONE.

Who is "their" referring to?
I would never say that mainline jobs were not lost in the transfer.

Although some might add "that there could have been many more "mainline" jobs if the Express companies hadn't taken "their" flying.

Which is pure speculation at best.

I see that you are only using recent events as your basis. What about in 1992 when a lot of the mainline flying was transferred to Express? That meant that the company did not have to recall any of the 302 pilots on furlough, and made it so that they didnt' have to hire any new pilots either. Pilots that could have come from the Express carriers.

I guess the Express guys are perfectly happy being where they are and don't care to move on to higher paying jobs someday.

 

[Treme]

whoa whoa whoa WHOA!!!

I seem to remember back in 1995 or was it 1996 that a little company called Jetstream International bought brand-spanking new high-speed turboprops (bought and paid for by USAir Group Inc.) and started flying such "feeder" routes as PIT-BHM, PIT-CHS, PIT-EVV.

Not ONE of the pilots who were furloughed from US Airways during that time was given the opportunity to fly that equipment. Millions of dollars of US Airways money was spent buying airplanes that those furloughed pilots were not eligible to fly.

And as long as we're splitting hairs...

"All flying performed by US Airways will be flown by pilots on the US Airways system seniority list EXCEPT..."

The EXCEPT is what allows you to exist. Were it not for the EXCEPT you would not have a job. The clause states that US Airways pilots own the US Airways flying, with the exception of certain flying that they PERMIT to be flown by subsidiaries and codeshare affiliates.

All i've got to say is that with 1800 pilots on the street there is a whole HECK of a lot of "EXCEPT" out there.

I dont agree with J4J either. That is why I havent taken one of the positions, nor do I intend to. It could have been done differently. It could have been done in such a way so as not to disturb your existing seniority list. That much I will give you.

But the minute one of you guys starts shooting your mouth off about entitlement when guys who were hired in 1987 are sitting on the beach watching you salivate over a shiny-new regional jet I can't help but get a little irritated. Some of those guys were flying for that airline before you started high-school!

Not only that but now you want to strip them of the right to vote and/or hold office -- essentially preventing them from having any say in their career at PSA???

Funny that you should mention a "Unified Front". There was a time when there was a movement by the junior guys at US Airways called "A Unified Front". That movement was established to apply political pressure to the MEC to establish a 100% flowthrough during a time when the airline was hiring 100 pilots per month.

Guess you guys were too busy complaining about "Dad" to notice.

 

[d328pilot]

if it were not for that "except", you would be making management fly a 757 from allentown to PIT. and you would be out of a job too....

Last time i checked, we are part of the U group too. The money was the U groups....not the U pilots money. there is more to the company than just the mainline pilots....if you dont think that, then cut off all express feed and see what happens to the company. we depend on each other. One is not better than the other. The fact is that this is all a result of us being treated like 2nd class pilots. I know the junior pilots there are not the problem. The senior guys are. I just hope everyone will be able to get along.

 

[RUhiring?]

I think we would all be a lot happier if US Airways Express did not exist. In that I mean that there should only be one seniority list from the A330 to the D328, and all the planes should have US Airways painted on the sides of them. But unfortunately somewhere along the line.....back in the early 70's, or maybe even the 60's, the first (codeshare) commuter airline (Allegheny commuter) was established. From that we now have the current situation.

It stinks, but it's what we have.

 

[d328pilot]

agreed

 

[NCFlyer]

whoa whoa whoa WHOA!!!

I seem to remember back in 1995 or was it 1996 that a little company called Jetstream International bought brand-spanking new high-speed turboprops (bought and paid for by USAir Group Inc.) and started flying such "feeder" routes as PIT-BHM, PIT-CHS, PIT-EVV.

Not ONE of the pilots who were furloughed from US Airways during that time was given the opportunity to fly that equipment. Millions of dollars of US Airways money was spent buying airplanes that those furloughed pilots were not eligible to fly.

Since I don't fly for PSA I may be going out on a limb here, but I'll bet that PSA would have done for the furloughed U pilots the same thing that mainline did for the wholly owned pilots when U sarted hiring again in the late 1990's. That is any mainline pilot was welcome to apply, go through the interview process, and try to get on with PSA and give up their DOH at mainline if hired.

But the minute one of you guys starts shooting your mouth off about entitlement when guys who were hired in 1987 are sitting on the beach watching you salivate over a shiny-new regional jet I can't help but get a little irritated. Some of those guys were flying for that airline before you started high-school!

While that may be true, it can also be said that there are many pilots with us that were flying while those with 1987 hire dates were still in high school. Just in my case I had already been flying 9 years by 1987. In fact with our wholly owned date of hire, we would still be employed at mainline.

Not only that but now you want to strip them of the right to vote and/or hold office -- essentially preventing them from having any say in their career at PSA???

Can you say "conflict of interest"?

What interest are these pilots going to serve?

Their mainline interest and their desire to be recalled ASAP or their "career" interest at PSA?

Funny that you should mention a "Unified Front". There was a time when there was a movement by the junior guys at US Airways called "A Unified Front". That movement was established to apply political pressure to the MEC to establish a 100% flowthrough during a time when the airline was hiring 100 pilots per month.

Why is it I have heard more about this so called "Unified Front" in the past 6 months than I ever heard between 1998-2001?

I guess the Express guys are perfectly happy being where they are and don't care to move on to higher paying jobs someday.

Yes, there are a number of Express pilots that are very happy where they are. Nothing wrong with that. In my case I make a comfortable living, need only 20 minutes to get to work, am gone only 8-12 nights per month, and spend none of my time commuting to/from work or in a crash pad. Life doesn't get much better than that.

 

[JBL]

BTDII,

Good post. A few thoughts if I may...

First, I can't argue that IF the jets simply "replaced" the 328's and the deliveries stopped there, you would be correct in your statement. You are thinking worst case...as I would expect any pilot to do. It drives my wife nuts! I too read the article in the paper summarizing the potential gloom and doom of the SEC filing. Let's not go for eachother's throats over a big "if". Hell, this whole industry is nothing but a heaping pile of "what if".

Meanwhile Mesa and others were already flying RJ's, why did'nt you try go after their current fleet like you went after ours. I freely admit I'm not fully up to speed on the J4J agreement, but isn't Mesa participating? I thought they were authorized to fly additional jets over the scope limit for the same deal as PSA.

Whats worse is that our MEC knew how bad of a deal this was and did'nt even try to negotiate anything better or at least more fair. I can't speak for those guys, but I do know that there were only a few pilots who were fully briefed, thus making them the most qualified to make the decision. Give a proposal to 300+ pilots and you'll get 300+ opinions. This is the reason we elect people in the first place, to make timely decisions with the welfare of the group in mind, based on information sometimes not made available to those whom the decision will affect. This is basic politics...I know you know this. My point is that if you were to ask these same individuals who voted yes if this deal was a "bad" one, I'll bet they would all say no. I think the rub here was the lack of member ratification. A valid beef, but elected officials ARE empowered to make decisions for the group. If we don't like their decisions, we vote them out next time around.

Staying at 25+planes is better than giving your job away. There is no gaurantee that we would have doubled our fleet when j4j was agreed to. So Yes when it came time to decide, I would have choose to take my chances on the 328. Again, IF. I totally agree that there are "no guarantees". Remember when Airways was gonna get 400+ Airbus's? I do, I think that's why I got hired. For everyone's sake, I hope all 60 RJ's DO get delivered...then again we could wake up tomorrow and find out in the paper that we're all out of work. Point?...consider, but don't react based on "what if's".

Since the planes are coming to our property, what gives the Mainline pilots the right to those Captain seats? Just because they were Mainline pilots is not good enough. Okay...this is a simple fact...NOTHING PERSONAL. USAirways ALPA negotiated scope protection just like PSA did. USAirways management agreed to it. It specifically limited the number of RJ's that could be flown in blue paint. That is what gave mainline ALPA the power to negotiate the J4J agreement. The RJ ball was TOTALLY in the pilot's court. Good or bad depends on which side of the fence one is sitting on. The choice was, let mainline buy PSA jets and fill half the seats with furloughees or say no and (here's an "if" for you) potentially lose your flying to contract RJ's and eventually cease to exist. Sound far fetched? Just look at what's happening at PDT and ALG. Hopefully it won't go that far, but it does raise an eyebrow. I've got friends over there just waiting for the hammer to drop. As far as Captain seats go...again, the ball was in mainline's court. Without J4J, those seats don't exist. Before you begin to accuse me of an inappropriate relationship with my mother , let's play another "if". Let's say Airways does turn around, PSA gets all 60 airplanes, and guys start getting called back. Now look at PSA. 2.4 times larger than before, a ton of true newhires filling those right seats, and warm & fuzzies all around. It could go either way...time will tell friend.

Let me give you this example. Lets say that ALG, PDT, and PSA were to all of a sudden start to furlough and lose planes at an alarming rate. Then Mainline starts getting Dash 8's, 328's, and RJ's ( or retired F100's for that matter - added by JBL). With those planes they start flying PIT to CRW all day long, obviously doing Express type flying. Would Mainline give us the same Props for Jobs deal? Let alone with half the Captain seats? I think you and I both know the answer to this. Man, you nailed that one!! I totally agree. This goes waaay back. One seniority list should have been agreed to by both parties long ago to avoid this type of sh!t. It was discussed in '94 when I started....just never happened.

Then to top it off, and this is where most of my anger toward the Mainline guys comes from, I get some of you guys talking about how in the next 5 years it'll be the ones that are on furlough now who'll be incharge of the MEC and things will change. Stuff like that drives me crazy... It should drive you nuts! You have my permission to kick the next yahoo who spouts off like that squarely in the stones. I can say beyond a doubt that those types are the minority and will never aspire to what they preach. As far as the "old b@stards" and the "I got mine now go get yours" attitude, I can say from experience that those few are just ignorant of the world around them. That is NOT the prevalent attitude at mainline. There was a real animosity for the mainline guys when I was at PSA the first time around...it hasn't gone away I see. They are not the enemy. Remember, mainline ALPA has one duty...to protect the interests of mainline pilots. PSA ALPA is tasked with the same duty for its' members. First it was "those mainline guys scoped me out of higher paying equipment", now it's "those mainline guys are stealing our jobs". It is simnply a union doing it's job. Some will say ALPA has positioned us to collectively fail. Maybe, but that's a debate for another time.

But before I go I just want to say that I am 100% for a Unified Front Between Mainline, ALG, PDT, and PSA... Let's stop it right there. We all (Usairways group pilots) need to agree to those words and move on. That's the ONLY way we'll still be around to launch verbal grenades at eachother on the message boards 10 years from now .

B.

P.S.- Billy Joel...nice.

 

[BTDII]

JBL,

Back at ya, great post. And that goes for everyone else. These discussions are needed so that both sides can learn to maybe and hopefully work together. To all of you who will come to PSA under J4J, I just ask that you be mindfull of the feelings of those around you and I'll try to do the same.

JBL said, "I freely admit I'm not fully up to speed on the J4J agreement, but isn't Mesa participating? I thought they were authorized to fly additional jets over the scope limit for the same deal as PSA. "

BTD says, "What I was trying to get at was that 100% off the RJs that would be flown by the WO's are subject to J4J while only "new" RJ's above the 70 already being flown by contractors are subject to J4J. If we the WO would have been able to replace our fleets with RJ's then any planes over our current fleets be subject to J4J, that would have been more fair to all involved. Or Mainline should have at least went after the current contracted RJ's just as they will now have acces to our entire fleet. Thats really all I was getting at when I said, "Meanwhile Mesa and others were already flying RJ's, why did'nt you try go after their current fleet like you went after ours." in an earlier post. At the very least if the WO's were guanteed to replace our fleets without being subjet to J4J anything extra I would be glad to just give you guys 100% of the seats just so long as we were "guarnteed" replacement first. But to late now I suppose.

Anyway, thanks to all for joining in. Take Care and be safe.

 

[FMR_RGNL_PLT]

Just out of curiosity...............

What was the argument that the Airways mainline pilots used for NOT giving wholy owned pilots a flowthrough agreement back in the 1990's?

Back then, when hiring was booming, why wouldn't the mainline pilot group NOT want quality, experienced, whollyowned pilots moving up?

Where did they prefer future Airways pilots come from? Was it a bias by the former military guys to get more of them into the compay?

I would really appreciate some info on this from those who know.... It seems like it would have been a win-win situation for the mainline guys to give the wholly owned guys flowthru......

It would certainly simplify things now for everyone!!!!!!