PSA Upgrades???

[OPECJet]

The fact of the matter is this T8, these individuals were at PDT for less than two years. They went to MDT to better the carrers. They got furloughed and back on the street. Now they are considered main line pilots and put onto the list. Big problem here. The orginal LOA was utilized from a list supplied by main line's MEC and did not have these individuals on it. Now that MDT is no more, they were place on it and main line ALPA forced PSA MEC to "accept" these individuals. A powerplay move. Now, they go to PSA as a Captain, by-passing 4 to 5 year First Officers. Even the TRUE J4J pilots at PSA are VERY bitter about this. Every pilot knows that this is unjust.

Tell me this T8, in this profession that we have chose, PROFESSIONAL morals, ethics and intergurity are paramount. That is why myself, the pilots at PSA are shall we say, a little ticked off about this. The PDT mgt and pilot group did not want these individual back on property as they knew that this was a scam.

I'm sorry that this affects you T8 but what is right is right. And this whole situation is wrong and stinks.


How about this T8. When the stock options were given out when the new LCC was formed, ZERO, NADA of the J4J pilots received anything. But, the MDT pilots received something. Do you think that is right, since the J4J pilots are still LCC employees with anywhre from 6 to 15 years at Main Line and the PDT pilots at MDA where at "Main Line" less than tow years?

You're off a bit on how long those guys were at PDT. If PDT pilots that had been at the company less than 2 years were able to hold an MDA slot, I'd be one of the guys you're b!tching about. Try about 5 yrs or so at PDT/ALG before moving on to MDA, then the BS that happened there.

 

[WSurf]

True, The list went a couple past me... I would think mid 2000 would be the most Junior MDA/PDT/ALG person.

Just think.... Some of these guys may have never even been a Captain at all.. Lovely, Just Lovely!!!!!!

Yo, 'D'.... My FO was a hottie!!! LOL!!!

 

[trainer8]

The fact of the matter is this T8, these individuals were at PDT for less than two years.

Not true. The most junior pilot on the APL who was at PDT was hired June 19, 2000. Several of the J4J APLs that were former ALG had 5 years on that property. Your information is incorrect.

They went to MDT to better the carrers. They got furloughed and back on the street. Now they are considered main line pilots and put onto the list. Big problem here. The orginal LOA was utilized from a list supplied by main line's MEC and did not have these individuals on it. Now that MDT is no more, they were place on it and main line ALPA forced PSA MEC to "accept" these individuals. A powerplay move. Now, they go to PSA as a Captain, by-passing 4 to 5 year First Officers. Even the TRUE J4J pilots at PSA are VERY bitter about this. Every pilot knows that this is unjust.

I have no argument in your assesment above, except to say that AAA ALPA is the one who made these decisions. The facts are the facts. When MDA was formed, it was to be a separate PWO. Fact is AAA ALPA screwed up. From the beginning, the APL pilots who were formerly Mainline should have been returned to AAA with longevity and pay comensurate with their positions. The Eagle contract was illegally (I/A/W ALPA bylaws) enforced on the MDA pilot group by the AAA MEC. This specific issue is being litigated right now with the MDA pilots vs. ALPA law suit. All of this has come out in the last 10 months, with the MDA arbitration. But indications as they are...that is, LCC and AAA ALPA are/have moved to correct the past mistakes, thus the APL including former CEL pilots. Technically, some say those 94 or 95 pilots should have been new hires to LCC, and what you are seeing happening is the correction of past mistakes, except for the compensatory issues.

Tell me this T8, in this profession that we have chose, PROFESSIONAL morals, ethics and intergurity are paramount. That is why myself, the pilots at PSA are shall we say, a little ticked off about this. The PDT mgt and pilot group did not want these individual back on property as they knew that this was a scam.

Professional morals, ethics, and integrety are important. So, is that why YOU resort to name calling? It seems your professional morals are morally relative. Spare me the "professional/integrity" speech while calling other "scabs" in the same breath.

As for PDT, I know the PDT FF committee chairman personally, and his accounting is quite different then yours.

How about this T8. When the stock options were given out when the new LCC was formed, ZERO, NADA of the J4J pilots received anything. But, the MDT pilots received something. Do you think that is right, since the J4J pilots are still LCC employees with anywhre from 6 to 15 years at Main Line and the PDT pilots at MDA where at "Main Line" less than tow years?

No, I don't, but the AAA MEC negotiated the terms and made the decision to award stock to "active US Airways Pilots." I didn't make the rules. They did. ALL of the J4J pilots at MDA received stock. J4J pilots at other carriers did not. Fair? Probably not. The same will ring true with the profit sharing coming out for PSA and PDT pilots. Those of us furloughed from LCC will receive nothing and the PDT and PSA pilots will receive profitsharing. Why, because that is what they negotiated and that is what they will get. That being said, I was at LCC all of last year. But I will receive nothing. That is the way it is.

T8

 

[FR8mastr]

I can deal with the ORGINAL pilots on the list accepting jobs here, but those PDT and ALG pilots who went to MDA, lets just say its my view that they (the PDT and ALG pilots) have no integrity, P.O.S., and a RATs ass below a SCABB !!!!!!!!

Wow, these guys are just following the contract that the PSA MEC signed. This is the same deal that when signed, broke an agreement with ALG and PDT to not cave into the whole J4J deal without the others on board. This deal was there to try and prevent the usual whipsaw that management loves to use. PSA one day was telling the other two MEC's that nothing was going on, the very next day, they have a deal signed for J4J. When speaking of integrity you might want to look at your own MEC a few years ago. In the mean time you went from 25 328's to what 50 or so jets? I dont think you are going to get a whole lot of sympathy from any WO pilots on this one. PSA wanted J4J, got it to the detriment of the other two WO's, so now you have to live with it. Your upgrade may be put off for a few months because of the latest class. I feel for you.

 

[UncleRico]

Wow, these guys are just following the contract that the PSA MEC signed. This is the same deal that when signed, broke an agreement with ALG and PDT to not cave into the whole J4J deal without the others on board. This deal was there to try and prevent the usual whipsaw that management loves to use. PSA one day was telling the other two MEC's that nothing was going on, the very next day, they have a deal signed for J4J. When speaking of integrity you might want to look at your own MEC a few years ago. In the mean time you went from 25 328's to what 50 or so jets? I dont think you are going to get a whole lot of sympathy from any WO pilots on this one. PSA wanted J4J, got it to the detriment of the other two WO's, so now you have to live with it. Your upgrade may be put off for a few months because of the latest class. I feel for you.

Problem is that we never signed an agreement to allow these guys to come here. They aren't APLers they are lost employees unfortunately.

 

[FR8mastr]

Problem is that we never signed an agreement to allow these guys to come here. They aren't APLers they are lost employees unfortunately.

What is an APL pilot? The pilots in the latest J4J class are on the US Airways System Seniority List

This is from attatchment B-1
· An “Affected Pilot” is a pilot on the US Airways Pilots System Seniority List who (a) has been furloughed or has been issued notice of furlough under Section 23(B) of the Agreement (b) has been recalled to US Airways and subsequently has again been furloughed or issued notice of furlough, or (c) has received notice of furlough from MDA, a Participating Wholly Owned Carrier, or a Participating Affiliate Carrier.

 

[UncleRico]

What is an APL pilot? The pilots in the latest J4J class are on the US Airways System Seniority List

This is from attatchment B-1
· An “Affected Pilot” is a pilot on the US Airways Pilots System Seniority List who (a) has been furloughed or has been issued notice of furlough under Section 23(B) of the Agreement (b) has been recalled to US Airways and subsequently has again been furloughed or issued notice of furlough, or (c) has received notice of furlough from MDA, a Participating Wholly Owned Carrier, or a Participating Affiliate Carrier.

I agree with the quote from my contract. Few issues though:

I thought MDA had a seperate Seniority List, originally. If that were the case, then they were not on the US Airways System Seniority List, therefore unable to participate in the J4J program.

Next, How can US Airways hire anyone when there was no offer to furloughees in 2004 for employment at US Airways flying the E-170? Remember now, there is a difference between MDA which furloughees may have bypassed and US Airways which is where PDT/ALG guys claim they worked.

Finally, Last I checked, our MEC had a seniority list of US Airways pilots as of the date the agreement was signed, and those PDT/ALG guys were not on it. There is such a thing in the RLA as "intent" and the PDT/ALG guys were never intended to be on the APL.

 

[Bdfg1]

Throw what ever tantrum you desire. However keep in mind that it was stated in court that MDA was mainline.

 

[trainer8]

I agree with the quote from my contract. Few issues though:

I thought MDA had a seperate Seniority List, originally. If that were the case, then they were not on the US Airways System Seniority List, therefore unable to participate in the J4J program.

Rico, if you are on the CEL, you were given a "ghost number" back in June of 2004. ALL CEL pilots received a "ghost number." My number was "activated" as a US Airways Seniority number when I arrived on the property at LCC. I was identified by this number every month along with my MDA seniority number when I bid my schedule. It is now my APL number and US Airways System Seniority List number. The "ghost numbers" for non AAA CEL pilots were removed by the AAA MEC last year.

Next, How can US Airways hire anyone when there was no offer to furloughees in 2004 for employment at US Airways flying the E-170? Remember now, there is a difference between MDA which furloughees may have bypassed and US Airways which is where PDT/ALG guys claim they worked.

You are correct except for the dates. It was in the summer and fall of 2003, after the demise of Potomac Air. As stated before in this thread, the "intent" was for MDA to be a PWO carrier, not a division of US Airways. Furloughees--APL, were offered, as you have correctly stated, positions at MDA, the PWO carrier, not US Airways. Pay was sub-standard for the size aircraft, and many by-passed. Thus, the negotiated flow-up from the CEL. Before that, though, after MDA was shut-down by the FAA in December 2003, US Airways moved the carrier onto its 121 Operating certificate. The mess started there. And for the factual record, the APL pilots who were formerly from PDT and ALG got to be in that position by proclamation of the AAA APLA MEC. Any claim by them is based on that fact.

Finally, Last I checked, our MEC had a seniority list of US Airways pilots as of the date the agreement was signed, and those PDT/ALG guys were not on it. There is such a thing in the RLA as "intent" and the PDT/ALG guys were never intended to be on the APL.

Again, you are correct about the Seniority list at the time MDA was created. The "intent" was to operate MDA as a PWO carrier. Not US Airways. That
"intent" was not carried through. In fact, it was completely changed by US Airways. As you well know, when a carrier takes over another carrier, you gotta do something with the new pilots. AAA ALPA did. Actually, MDA's start-up was mandated to be an ALPA carrier. So when it was moved onto the LCC Ops Certificate, AAA ALPA collected dues from ALL of the MDA pilots. They may have even done that before, I don't know, as I wasn't there yet.

As stated before, your argument and offense is not with the pilots who are in class now at PSA. They are only excercising the rights given them by the AAA/PSA J4J agreement. I'm disappointed to see the unprofessionalism displayed toward these pilots in this and another thread by a few pilots and the threats posted about them here. I have several friends at PSA and PDT. While we disagree on the merits of this mess, we have maintained a professional demeanor. I know that unprofessional views stated here are not representative of all of the PSA or PDT pilots. PSA's disagreement is with AAA, not these individuals. The grievance has been filed. Let it work.

T8

 

[trainer8]

Problem is that we never signed an agreement to allow these guys to come here. They aren't APLers they are lost employees unfortunately.

Your MEC represents you and the PSA pilot group. They approved the agreement. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remeber any recall attempt by the PSA pilot group after ST signed J4J for you.

T8

 

[trainer8]

We stood together once and we will stand together over this issue too. This is one we will win in arbitration. Just remember to fill out a grievance. Two hundred FO grievances and one MEC level grievance is a lot of pressure.

You are correct that there will be an outcome to the grievances. It's great to see your confidence and most assuredly, the PSA pilots are unified as demonstrated in the recent rejection of 90 seat RJ's. Let's see what happens.

And no I do not think the PDT and ALG pilots are APLers even by definition in my contract, because they never worked for US Airways and were never apart of the J4J agreement. The definition of APLJust because you were slapped on the bottom of the list after MDA went away does not mean you are/were Mainline and that the agreement was intended for you. Kinda hard to hire off the street while 1500+ guys are on the street furloughed. By the way where is the language and flow through agreement for PDT and ALG? Is it in an LOA or what?

Re-read your LOA 91. Several have posted it here for you. The criteria is 1) you must be on the "US Airways Pilot System Seniority List." The pilots you speak of are on that list. Sub point (c), "has received notice of furlough from MDA...." The pilots you speak of fulfill both of those requirements. You may disagree with the language, or the process, but they are APL pilots by this definition in LOA 91. They didn't say so. LCC management and AAA ALPA did.

T8

 

[Swaayze]

As recently as early 2005 there were E170 vacancies offered to APL/CEL pilots. Clearly the airplanes were being operated on the mainline certificate at this point.

 

[Swaayze]

Upgrade? lol, thats rich! I think even if Jerks for My upgrade (short for "I'm a JJ and I'm better then god") went away right now I would still be like 5 years from upgrade and I've been here for well over 2 years now. What a mistake to come to PSA! This place is by far the worst place to work out there. At least at Mesa there is an upgrade.

So you went to PSA aware of the J4J program. You probably were excited that you'd be flying a jet instead of a D328. The program resulted in more airframes at PSA, with higher pay. APL pilots were allowed 50% of the seats, but probably took less than 20% because the FO seats were not highly regarded or accepted. So you've actually benefitted considerably from the program while I've been watching you fly the exact same routes I used to fly (for $88/hr in the F100 while you get what, about $30/hr). Exactly WTF are you crying about?

 

[UncleRico]

Re-read your LOA 91. Several have posted it here for you. The criteria is 1) you must be on the "US Airways Pilot System Seniority List." The pilots you speak of are on that list. Sub point (c), "has received notice of furlough from MDA...." The pilots you speak of fulfill both of those requirements. You may disagree with the language, or the process, but they are APL pilots by this definition in LOA 91. They didn't say so. LCC management and AAA ALPA did.

T8

I re-read LOA 91 T8. You are exactly right that in LOA 91 you were able to move from the CEL to to MDA and be on their pilot list. And you know what you are right after MDA was placed on the LCC ops certificate you became a US Airways System Pilot. Where you need to re-read the contract is the portion that states any "Pilots employed by a PWOC who become MDA pilots or US Airways pilots under this Attatchment B may flow back to their respective PWOC." You are a US Airways Pilot and I congratulate you on reaching a legacy carrier, but you need to follow the agreement you signed up for by activating your CEL number. I am sorry but this is exactly what LOA 91 states. I have nothing against you or the others in class, I have an issue with your interpretation and abuse of LOA 91. I am sure we will have fun flying together, but we will have to just agree to disagree I guess.

 

[FR8mastr]

I re-read LOA 91 T8. You are exactly right that in LOA 91 you were able to move from the CEL to to MDA and be on their pilot list. And you know what you are right after MDA was placed on the LCC ops certificate you became a US Airways System Pilot. Where you need to re-read the contract is the portion that states any "Pilots employed by a PWOC who become MDA pilots or US Airways pilots under this Attatchment B may flow back to their respective PWOC." You are a US Airways Pilot and I congratulate you on reaching a legacy carrier, but you need to follow the agreement you signed up for by activating your CEL number. I am sorry but this is exactly what LOA 91 states.

That would be correct had the flow been finished. (the part that says details to be worked out later) There isn't any flow agreement in place. So all APL pilots that have not previously passed on a J4J position are eligable to bid these positions.

 

[Sawmill]

I dont know what you are all p1ss1ng and moaning about...I was in the new hire class from January 2006, Im not a J4J, and I have already upgraded!

 

[mamba20]

So you went to PSA aware of the J4J program. You probably were excited that you'd be flying a jet instead of a D328. The program resulted in more airframes at PSA, with higher pay. APL pilots were allowed 50% of the seats, but probably took less than 20% because the FO seats were not highly regarded or accepted. So you've actually benefitted considerably from the program while I've been watching you fly the exact same routes I used to fly (for $88/hr in the F100 while you get what, about $30/hr). Exactly WTF are you crying about?

Actually ******************************bag I was here before the J4J program and before I came to PSA I was flying jets, so there goes your theory about me having SJS. I've got an idea for you, why dont you go stick your thumb up your ass? It would be the most usefull thing you've done all week.

 

[Stuka Luva]

Your MEC represents you and the PSA pilot group. They approved the agreement. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remeber any recall attempt by the PSA pilot group after ST signed J4J for you.

T8

Ok, you're wrong


A little history lesson for you...


There WAS a recall movement of ST after all this J4J nonsense. The lynchpin vote (who no longer works here, naturally) backed out and ST was not recalled. He was defeated however when his term was up. Yes if ST was still Chair he prolly would've already signed off on the -900 BS. Thank God he isn't.


As far as beating a very dead horse:


J4J was agreed to and APL pilots are here legit and all.

The INTENT was for CEL pilots to return to their respective airlines as has been stated correctly many many times.

"I'm a JJ and I'm better then god" -- There are very few of these people on the property. Most are hard working good people who have been more screwed by airline management than most posters on this insane asylum message board.

 

[Bdfg1]

Actually ******************************bag I was here before the J4J program and before I came to PSA I was flying jets, so there goes your theory about me having SJS. I've got an idea for you, why dont you go stick your thumb up your ass? It would be the most usefull thing you've done all week.

Tissue please. I'm all teared up.

 

[trainer8]

Ok, you're wrong. A little history lesson for you...

There WAS a recall movement of ST after all this J4J nonsense. The lynchpin vote (who no longer works here, naturally) backed out and ST was not recalled. He was defeated however when his term was up. Yes if ST was still Chair he prolly would've already signed off on the -900 BS. Thank God he isn't.

As far as beating a very dead horse: J4J was agreed to and APL pilots are here legit and all.

The INTENT was for CEL pilots to return to their respective airlines as has been stated correctly many many times.

Didn't know about the recall. I don't mind being wrong about that. Good info. Regarding "intent," again, I agree. Because FF was never completed, we are where we are today.

As someone put it on this board, we went to MDA, stepped in a pile of _______ and came out wearing a sweet sweet smelling suit. I'll believe it, though when I'm back on the property with my old ID bage on.

T8

 

[Stuka Luva]

USAir sure is a big $hit sandwich huh? uke:

And by that I mean the whole Group

 

[mamba20]

Tissue please. I'm all teared up.

go suck a fat one.

 

[UncleRico]

That would be correct had the flow been finished. (the part that says details to be worked out later) There isn't any flow agreement in place. So all APL pilots that have not previously passed on a J4J position are eligable to bid these positions.

Fr8 I guess then that you have still violated LOA 91, because if there was no agreement to "Flow" as you say, then how did you end up at MDA? LOA 91 states that first, US Airways pilots would have the opportunity to go to MDA, then "Participating Wholly Owned Carriers" (which you now are stating you were never apart of), then to new hires who engage in the official off the street hiring process (ie. interview, sim ride, etc., etc., et.). All of this information can be found in LOA 91. You unfortunately are not an APL pilot, no matter what you believe.

 

[Bdfg1]

go suck a fat one.

Need another tissue now.

 

[ALGFLYR]

J4J was agreed to and APL pilots are here legit and all.

The INTENT was for CEL pilots to return to their respective airlines as has been stated correctly many many times.

Well two points on this part. First, LOA 91 says a CEL pilot that becames MDA or ML may return to his previous carrier if furloughed. WE tried and were not allowed to return to PDT. Not saying I would have returned, but the option was never even there as it should have been.

Second, it says we MAY return to our previous carrier. It doesn't say we HAVE to return. At our option we could chose to stay on furlough. And being rightfully on the APL list, we could exercise our option to participate in J4J at any J4J carrier that had pilot openings, such as PSA. Everything defining us as APL pilots and our rights available to us as being such, is clearly stated in LOA 91, which was agreed to and accepted by PSA.

 

[ALGFLYR]

Fr8 I guess then that you have still violated LOA 91, because if there was no agreement to "Flow" as you say, then how did you end up at MDA? LOA 91 states that first, US Airways pilots would have the opportunity to go to MDA, then "Participating Wholly Owned Carriers" (which you now are stating you were never apart of), then to new hires who engage in the official off the street hiring process (ie. interview, sim ride, etc., etc., et.). All of this information can be found in LOA 91. You unfortunately are not an APL pilot, no matter what you believe.

Well a few points on this post:

LOA 91 defined how we flowed to MDA. It was followed correctly. There was no violation of the agreement as we flowed up.

While it's true LOA 91 states MDA would be staffed first by US Airways pilots, then CEL then off the street, That part was amended NOT to allow US Airways pilot to staff MDA. It was a subsequent agreement agreed to by AAA MEC and management before MDA started its operation. I can't remember the agreement number, and don't really find it necessary to hunt for it at this point since it's not really relavent to this topic. Just FYI.

There was also a flow-back provision for any former CEL pilot that went to MDA and became furloughed. It clearly stated we could flow back to our previous carrier. That part WAS violated as we were not allowed to return to PDT. BTW, 100% of the CEL pilots that went to MDA came from PDT as ALG technically didn't exist on the date of the first MDA class that contained CEL pilots.

The part of LOA 91 that many like to quote in regard to a flowback still having to be constructed is mis-understood by most people. It is clear that a CEL pilot could return to PDT. Then there is a part that states a ML, i.e., a non-CEL pilot at MDA could flow-back if furloughed. It is that part that then states that an agreement must be constructed as LOA "TBD". If you read LOA 91 carefully, the TBD part applies to ML pilots flowing back, NOT CEL pilots flowing back.

And lastly, you say "you are not an APL pilot no matter what you believe" Well I have a copy of the latest Affected Pilots List (APL), and every former CEL pilot that went to MDA is listed on that list. As is true in most things in aviation, I won't believe it until I see it with my own eyes. Well I have seen the APL list with my own eyes and my name is on there, and I believe it...

 

[Stuka Luva]

There was also a flow-back provision for any former CEL pilot that went to MDA and became furloughed. It clearly stated we could flow back to our previous carrier. That part WAS violated as we were not allowed to return to PDT. BTW, 100% of the CEL pilots that went to MDA came from PDT as ALG technically didn't exist on the date of the first MDA class that contained CEL pilots.

This is my beef really...

If PDT MGMT (as opposed to PDT ALPA as I understand it) allowed said pilots to flow back as was intended with this agreement, we wouldn't be in this latest mess.

 

[ALGFLYR]

This is my beef really...

If PDT MGMT (as opposed to PDT ALPA as I understand it) allowed said pilots to flow back as was intended with this agreement, we wouldn't be in this latest mess.

Agreed...

 

[FR8mastr]

PDT ALPA's position now is not the same as it was late last summer. They are paying for that old position with the current, or lack thereof flow.

 

[BeCareful!]

You know, Mamba20, you said you'd been at PSA "well over two years"....which is probably why Swaayze figured you were post JJ, or at the very least well aware of the J4J agreement. It certainly was the impression your previous post gave me.

So, how about addressing his post in an honest, mature way? Respond to what Swaazye said about how few seats JJs really have taken, how much you've actually benefited, and also the part about WTF you are crying about.