Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
PSA question
- Thread starter ALGFLYR
- Start date
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
OneTuffGuy
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2003
- Posts
- 76
OneTuffGuy said:
There is no pretending here. All CEL pilots that went to MDA were added to the Mainline system seniority list, ie, became mainline pilots flying mainline equipment on the mainline operating certificate. When they were furloughed they became APL pilots as defined in LOA 91. Very clear and precise. And as an APL pilot, we have every right to participate in J4J. Would I try to get into the Aug class at PSA? Not sure yet, thus the questions I asked...
1973Arrow
Word
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2003
- Posts
- 257
check out www.airlinepilotcetral.com
Terrain Terrain
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 14, 2006
- Posts
- 273
EDUC8-or
These Nachos Are Good
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2002
- Posts
- 326
ALGFLYR said:
If you come here as a J4J captain you will be on reserve for a LONG time. Probably 2+ years. PSA pretty much abuses their reserves. Crew Scheduling will try to slip things by you and violate your contract. They will ask for "favors" and when it's your turn to ask they will deny you. Also, you could possibly be dealing with some disgruntled FO's who have been passed up for upgrade. I know the Senior J4J guys are pretty comfortable, they have slots in the bidding system. The Junior guys have been on reserve for about 2+ years and it seems like quite a few are unhappy.
I'm not bashing PSA, I enjoy working here I just want you to know what to expect.
Find a PSA First officer that has been waiting to upgrade for 5 years and ask him what your first year rate is. Im sure they will be happy to tell you. Out of curiosity what was your hire date at ALG. Good luck if you come here because im sure you will be hated by those that you bypass. Their is a reason that we havent had that class yet. Management doesnt want the guys here either. So instead we just continue to junior man and extend the captains we do have. Wait till you get a dose of PSA captain reserve when we are short staffed. I hope you make the right decision for you and your family.
EDUC8-or said:
Reserve wouldn't bother me as long as it was in CLT. With the 190's coming, I would leave when that became available, most likely less than a year. The question will be if PSA will let us go or hold us there under the provisions of LOA 91.
As far as flying with a disgruntled FO, hopefully that wouldn't be a problem. We can all talk the talk on here, in the crewroom, or wherever, but when that cockpit door closes, I expect to be sitting next to a professional pilot that will do his job safely. He doesn't have to like me or even talk to me, but he will do his job, otherwise the plane won't move. I know the PSA pilots are a professional group like PDT and ALG were so I expect that won't be too much of a problem...
OneTuffGuy
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2003
- Posts
- 76
B190Captain
FUPM
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2003
- Posts
- 911
I dont believe that is true. I have seen a document stating that ALG/PDT folks affected by the failure of MDA will return to their respective carrier. YOU were not furloughed from mainline under the original protocol. YOU never had a USAirways MAINLINE hire date. YOU were NOT affected by the furloughs caused by 9/11 therefore YOU are NOT AFFECTED nor part of the APL "Affected Pilot List."ALGFLYR said:
How can you justify being part of mainline when you were at MDA for a couple of years and there were 15 year plus mainline furloughees on the street or at Mesa, PSA and son on?
YOU have NO right to be under this J4J protocol nor have any right to take a left seat position at PSA as a J4J. You most certainly can have a job here though, ON THE BOTTOM of the list as an FO NEWHIRE.
Last edited:
Your right to flow back is not in any LOA. In fact, if you read LOA 91, it states that if you flow up to MDA and are furloughed, then you go back to your previous employer. ie PDT You were put on the APL by a mainline MEC resolution. The mainline MEC does not have the right or ability to modify a two party agreement on their own. Will you come here? Maybe. But I can promise you that we will fight your coming tooth and nail, and that your time here will not be pleasant.
d328pilot said:
OK, now your just making things up to try and support your argument. I was put on the APL by a mainline resolution? Not even close. If you pay attention to what documents are out there that could affect you, you would know that is not true. So, how did I get on the APL? A simple answer - LOA 91. That was not a mainline resolution. Here is the section of LOA 91 that applies, it's in Attachment B-1, defining what constitutes an "Affected pilot", it's page 16 of the document:
An “Affected Pilot” is a pilot on the US Airways Pilots System Seniority List who (a) has been furloughed or has been issued notice of furlough under Section 23(B) of the Agreement, (b) has been recalled to US Airways and subsequently has again been furloughed or issued notice of furlough, or (c) has received notice of furlough from MDA, a Participating Wholly Owned Carrier, or a Participating Affiliate Carrier.
So, one more time and I'll add a little in bold type:
An “Affected Pilot” is a pilot on the US Airways Pilots System Seniority List (That is every CEL pilot that went to MDA) who (a) has been furloughed or has been issued notice of furlough under Section 23(B) of the Agreement (Not me), (b) has been recalled to US Airways and subsequently has again been furloughed or issued notice of furlough (Again, not me), or (c) has received notice of furlough from MDA (This is it, I was furloughed from MDA), a Participating Wholly Owned Carrier, or a Participating Affiliate Carrier.
So there you have it. Mainline did NOT change any two-party agreement. They are abiding by what everyone agreed to in LOA 91. LOA 91 makes every former CEL pilot that went to MDA a pilot on the APL list with all J4J rights. Of course you knew this as it was in LOA 91 that you read and voted to accept in order to get jets on your property. You knew this was a potential outcome when you approved LOA 91 and now have to live with what you asked for.
I'm not trying to get into any type of battle here. I was just asking for a little information on PSA. I also knew that by going to MDA I was risking being furloughed if things went bad. I read LOA 91 and knew all the possible risks and found them acceptable to me. As far as going back to PDT, we tried, but the PDT MEC dropped the ball there and we were not allowed back. OK, fine. That also cost them the flow-thru agreement in place. Now, if a flow will ever happen again, every current CEL pilot will be junior to every former CEL pilot that went to MDA. That was not the way it was supposed to be, but you can thank the PDT MEC for that one. There is every indication that mainline will hire new-hires off the street in 2007. I had hoped that would have been from the CEL, but it is highly doubtful that will happen at this point.
328dude
Still turning two
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 1,647
An “Affected Pilot” is a pilot on the US Airways Pilots System Seniority List (That is every CEL pilot that went to MDA) (really, when you selected to go to MDA, did you know that you were becoming a mainline employee? If this was the case, and the guys that selected US Airways only on the CEL website just got bypassed.) who (a) has been furloughed or has been issued notice of furlough under Section 23(B) of the Agreement (Not me), (b) has been recalled to US Airways and subsequently has again been furloughed or issued notice of furlough (Again, not me), or (c) has received notice of furlough from MDA (This is it, I was furloughed from MDA), a Participating Wholly Owned Carrier, or a Participating Affiliate Carrier. The last part deals with furloughed US Airways pilots. If you look at the US Airways system senority list during MDA's tenure, non of the CEL guys are listed. You are on there now however. Just another attempt by Snider and Don B to pull a fast one. They know what the intent was when they drafted this LOA.
328dude said:
I didn't, until the first day of MDA Ground School, when I saw my name with aN MDA employee number and a US Airways Pilots System Seniority List number. In fact, all CEL pilots who selected FO. Capt only, or ALL on their bid sheet received a seniority number.
I had to smile at this one. :laugh: They appeared there in September of 2005 and again in January of 2006. In August 2005, US Airways counsel Jerry Glass and VP of Express Division Bruce Ashby, both on the stand, under oath at the MDA arbitration, clearly stated that MDA was US Airways. No one was more shocked to hear that than KS and DB. Until then, both of these guys were reluctant to include MDA pilots on the UPSSL. After that admission, the ball got rolling.
T8
328dude said:
Once again, your making stuff up. We were on the US Airways System Seniority List from day 1. Show me one copy of the ML seniority list that did not have our name on it. Thought so - you can't. That made us US Airways pilots from day 1. So the last part that deals with furloughed US Airways pilots deals with every former CEL pilot that went to MDA. Period.
LOA 91, attachment B, page 14, "flows between carriers", 2nd paragraph
"Pilots employed by a Participating Wholly Owned Carrier who becomes MDA pilots or US Airways pilots under this attachment B, may flow back to their respective Participating Wholly Owned Carriers."
I could care less if you think I have a lack of professionalism. If you want us to all hold hands and make nice, it isn't going to happen. You dont belong here, plain and simple. There are a LOT of FOs that you are going to screw if you come here and dont kid yourself and think they will make it easy for you.
"Pilots employed by a Participating Wholly Owned Carrier who becomes MDA pilots or US Airways pilots under this attachment B, may flow back to their respective Participating Wholly Owned Carriers."
I could care less if you think I have a lack of professionalism. If you want us to all hold hands and make nice, it isn't going to happen. You dont belong here, plain and simple. There are a LOT of FOs that you are going to screw if you come here and dont kid yourself and think they will make it easy for you.
KeroseneSnorter
Robust Member
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2003
- Posts
- 1,530
d328pilot said:
I quoted that very part of LOA 91 in another thread. I believe that part says we can flow back to PDT. We tried. The PDT MEC blocked that and a by-product of that move pretty much ended the flow-thru. It wasn't until the AWA merger that they then wanted the flow back. I would rather go back to PDT if I could because I would make more money flying the Dash 8 than a PSA RJ. I could care less if it's a jet or a prop. Dash 8 pilots make more money. Now that's plain and simple.
I'm not here to make friends with you and I sure don't want to hold your hand. I am just weighing my options until I get re-called into the 190. PSA is a legitimate option and I am exploring that option. Still not sure if I would go, Several questions still need to be answered.
You said a couple of posts ago:
(really, when you selected to go to MDA, did you know that you were becoming a mainline employee? If this was the case, and the guys that selected US Airways only on the CEL website just got bypassed.)
I don't disagree with this statement. The original intent was we would go to MDA which was to be it's own airline with it's own operating certificate. We all know that didn't happen. US Airways decided to operate the 170 on the ML certificate. When they did that, we became ML pilots on the ML seniority list. That had to happen. The ML MEC could not allow pilots to fly planes on the ML certificate unless they were on the ML seniority list. If they had, a dangerous precident would have been set. Now those CEL pilots that had a preference for ML only may have an argument. I'm not sure how they should proceed.
Certainly threats from you though just tend to show a childish side of your personality. As I said before, if I decide to go to PSA, I won't be there to make friends. I don't need everyone to like me. But I do expect that when we fly, they are the professional pilots I know they are. After the brakes are set, they can do or say anything they want.
Former PDT/ALG screw their WO CEL brothers at PSA!
ALGFLYR:
First, I am sorry that your MEC guys pissed off Siegel so much in that famous Crystal City elevator encounter that he decided to shut down ALG and merge what's left with PDT, leaving you with no ALG to flow back to.
That however, entitles you to nothing at PSA! If you think you were, or magically became, a US Airways mainline pilot by going to MDA, you are deluding yourself.
You were a regional pilot, flying a regional jet (E170, and check the Embraer website and their term, not mine) for what US Airways intended to be a regional airline, MidAtlantic.
If you think any of your friends at AAA think that you are a mainline pilot, think again. I am absolutely certain that your did not have an ability to bid into a 737 or an A320, nor anything else for that matter, therefore you were not a US Airways pilot!
I do believe, that in the event of furlough, you were entitled to flow back to the WO carrier from which you came. Unfortunately, in your case the carrier no longer exists, presumably eliminating that option.
If you had any right to flow down to any WO, it would possibly be PDT, since ALG and PDT were essentially merged. As you already stated, the PDT MEC nixed that.
The way you guys magically manipulated a AAA seniority number for yourselves by coercing AAA and their MEC, and thereby as you correctly stated putting yourself ahead of your fellow WO CEL pilots out of seniority, is absolutely unfair.
And, taking advantage of this screwball arrangement, which was entered into when no one thought Airways would continue to exist, to grab a captain slot at PSA, when you should only be entitled to the slot you vacated at ALG, is outrageous.
The language of LOA91 that you quoted is at best ambiguous, and implies that all WO pilots have a AAA seniority number. I doubt that is AAA's interpretation and neither is your contention.
Why didn't you just take the position at Republic, while you are waiting for your out of seniority CEL recall to US Airways? Yeah, don't remind me of the crooked deal that has inappropriately put you on the APL and entitled you to superseniority on the CEL.
ALGFLYR said:
ALGFLYR:
First, I am sorry that your MEC guys pissed off Siegel so much in that famous Crystal City elevator encounter that he decided to shut down ALG and merge what's left with PDT, leaving you with no ALG to flow back to.
That however, entitles you to nothing at PSA! If you think you were, or magically became, a US Airways mainline pilot by going to MDA, you are deluding yourself.
You were a regional pilot, flying a regional jet (E170, and check the Embraer website and their term, not mine) for what US Airways intended to be a regional airline, MidAtlantic.
If you think any of your friends at AAA think that you are a mainline pilot, think again. I am absolutely certain that your did not have an ability to bid into a 737 or an A320, nor anything else for that matter, therefore you were not a US Airways pilot!
I do believe, that in the event of furlough, you were entitled to flow back to the WO carrier from which you came. Unfortunately, in your case the carrier no longer exists, presumably eliminating that option.
If you had any right to flow down to any WO, it would possibly be PDT, since ALG and PDT were essentially merged. As you already stated, the PDT MEC nixed that.
The way you guys magically manipulated a AAA seniority number for yourselves by coercing AAA and their MEC, and thereby as you correctly stated putting yourself ahead of your fellow WO CEL pilots out of seniority, is absolutely unfair.
And, taking advantage of this screwball arrangement, which was entered into when no one thought Airways would continue to exist, to grab a captain slot at PSA, when you should only be entitled to the slot you vacated at ALG, is outrageous.
The language of LOA91 that you quoted is at best ambiguous, and implies that all WO pilots have a AAA seniority number. I doubt that is AAA's interpretation and neither is your contention.
Why didn't you just take the position at Republic, while you are waiting for your out of seniority CEL recall to US Airways? Yeah, don't remind me of the crooked deal that has inappropriately put you on the APL and entitled you to superseniority on the CEL.
CEL with former PDT/ALG in their proper seniority order!
And, if you want to stretch your logic further, there is a CEL (with your name in the correct seniority order), which could be said to be an extension of the AAA seniority list.
You and other PDT/ALG pilots who chose to bid for MDA and were subsequently furloughed, should go back to your appropriate seniority order on that list!
jetfo said:
And, if you want to stretch your logic further, there is a CEL (with your name in the correct seniority order), which could be said to be an extension of the AAA seniority list.
You and other PDT/ALG pilots who chose to bid for MDA and were subsequently furloughed, should go back to your appropriate seniority order on that list!
jetfo said:
In fact, looking at the list published April 1, 2006, there are 94 MDA pilots on the CEL that were former ALG/PDT pilots who bid to go to MDA.
As of April of 2006 it shows 24 at Republic.
So, why would you guys be on the CEL as of April of 2006?!?
I also happen to have the current 2006 US Airways Seniority Roster showing all current and furloughed AAA pilots, and guess what? You are not on it! The most recent hire came to AAA 1/31/2000. A little before your time!
So, take your place in line on the CEL, where you belong until you flow up to AAA in your proper CEL seniority!
KeroseneSnorter
Robust Member
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2003
- Posts
- 1,530
jetfo said:
I would double check your list you have, it is incomplete. There were three classes after Jan 2000. 2/14/2000, and 2/28/2000, 4/17/2000 (Only three in that one) A total of 48 original furloughees are missing from your list.
I guess if they have been lost in the shuffle that there will be a whole crowd o lawsuits when recall time comes!!
(That was a joke......for those who missed it!!)I have not seen a seniority list that containes the CEL guys, but we (furloughed pukes) were told that the w/o guys that went to MDA are now on the bottom of our list. No idea if that entitles them to a J4J position, but they will get called up to USAir after all the furloughees are brought back...or pass.
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
