Proof that mainline hates gojet!

[KeroseneSnorter]

First of all, I am sick of people comparing the two situations. Yes Goatjet is worse. Thank you. Mainline did give up thier scope. Under pressure yes. But we are all under pressure. Regional pilots are under pressure to take a shatty contract or our existing flying goes to the next lowest bidder. Mainline was under pressure to give up scope or lose pay rates or retirement. So your saying that the pressure you were under is more valid than the pressure put on regional pilots? Accept for the scope that you gave up, your job was not subject to the lowest bid. That is a profound difference in leverage. You had alot of leverage and we have none.

If you want to raise the average wage in this profession, than figure out a way in the mainline contract to set pilot wages at the regional level in your mainline contract. For example, the NWA TA specifies what the Compass pilots must be paid. This was because NWA furloughs might have to staff the airline. But the idea could be the same. For example, All regional feed for Delta feed will be paid X as a minimum. If this were in a mainline contract it would help insure that musical Rjs and lowest bid race would have less of an impact. Side benefit, if regional wages were much higher management would have less incentive to keep taking your flying and contracting cheap regionals.

I know that will never happen, but it would help. Mainline pilots have simply not given regional pilots the leverage they need to raise wages. We have almost know power. In your responce to me that focused on why I should have no opinion of the state of the industry that I am involved, you did not comment on how we have the entire deck stacked against us. You want to blame us for all the problems of the industry, yet you have failed to recognize that we HAVE NO LEVERAGE. If things are to improve, we need mainline support and collective solutions. We have seen what happens to regionals that take a stand for improvement. Either they lose their flying to someone that is cheaper or they start an alter ego to get cheaper wages and avoid negotiating with the existing pilot group (job and pilot replacement workers).

For all you pilots that keep saying that TSA should have had scope to protect them, THEY DID. THEY STILL DO. The company found a loop hole. THE PILOTS DID NOT GIVE IT UP. EVER. Not even for retirement or pay rates. Gayjet is a different situation and should be treated differently.

We had no leverage either, the regional pilots kept undercutting us everytime we tried to make a stand. Go -jets is simply the next step beyond that.

By the time the regional guys figured out they screwed themselves by accepting the flying for garbage wages and tried to correct it mgmt. simply implimented phase 2.......alter ego.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

12 months go by, pilot group finally relents and tries to get jets for Wholly owned partners only in limited numbers, in exchange for payrate increase and retirement increase. 20 jets total or so.



So what you are saying is you gave up scope for a pay raise and better retirement that you have since lost. Its like blameing the salesman for making a bad deal on a new car. It just doesn't make sense. Mainline gave up the scope for what ever selfish reason. You were not in bankruptcy the first time you gave it up, so don't blame the guy flying around in a turboprop for wanting to fly something better, blame yourself for being shortsighted and selfish. In case you haven't leaned from history, if you give up anymore scope then someone who is lower paid will be flying an EMB-175 for half of what a 737 pilot makes. So do you think they may give you another raise?

Actually the alter ego thing was used against us, among other threats.

The regional MEC's also put considerable pressure on the mainline to release jets to them.

And the final nail was the payrates they were willing to fly it for, once mgmt. heard that, there was no way they were going to let the RJ come to mainline....they knew we (mainline pilots) would never allow them to be flown for those wages at the time. So mainline MEC figured all they could hope to do was control the number of them and improve the contract.

Fast forward 6 years and mainline wages have been dragged down to match the regionals......again no way that could have happened if the regionals had held the line to at least getting a semi fair wage for the rj. We didn't have the power to stop it ourselves without regional pilots backing, however you guys are quick to blame us for not helping now!!! Well sorry, but you cut our johnsons off back in 01 and 02 so now the mainline does not have any leverage left....the regional pilots shiney jet syndrome saw to that.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Just for informational purposes for the young loudmouths that came into the industry AFTER all this happened...here are some pay rates to consider.

You are going to hate comparing them to your payscale on the RJ.

1998 payrate for RJ's. RJ being defined as F-28's, prior to the regional boys whoring themselves out.

F-28 second Year Capt. $92.42
F-28 second year F/O $46.21

Even now 8 years later RJ payrates don't even come close to this number.

That is what mainline tried to preserve...and with the regional pilots help we could have done it, Instead we had the rug pulled out from under us Go jet style....get the jet at any price.

 

[f/o(forever)]

Just for informational purposes for the young loudmouths that came into the industry AFTER all this happened...here are some pay rates to consider.

You are going to hate comparing them to your payscale on the RJ.

1998 payrate for RJ's. RJ being defined as F-28's, prior to the regional boys whoring themselves out.

F-28 second Year Capt. $92.42
F-28 second year F/O $46.21

Even now 8 years later RJ payrates don't even come close to this number.

That is what mainline tried to preserve...and with the regional pilots help we could have done it, Instead we had the rug pulled out from under us Go jet style....get the jet at any price.

Thats all nice but when I signed up at a "regional airline" in 1999, I expected to work in a turbo prop for 5 years and then go to a mailline carrier. We had turbo props that seated 70 seaters, so when the new rj's came out and mainline didn't want to fly 50 seaters the logical place to put them was at the regional level( logical from a business standpoint). PLEASE DO NOT ASSUME THAT THOSE DECISIONS MADE ANY REGIONAL EMPLOYEE HAPPY. Remember we want to build our time and the move on to mainline! I signed on to a union airline knowing this industry and how important solidarity is, ie my father was an alpa pilot. We used alpa to negotiate our contract, and to my knowledge mainline still has more members in alpa then regional pilots. So how can you say we negotiated a lowest price to fly the rj's? Everyone at alpa could have stopped this in the beginning but no wanted to. Gayjets on the other hand went against an alpa contract, THIS IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT! I agree with you that alter ego was the next step from management, That is what we try to prevent with contracts. The next step may be for airlines to charge pilots right seat time so they can get experience, does that mean we blame the new kid that just wants a job or do we prevent this from happening in the first place by not allowing it at a contract level? WE AS UNION PILOTS NEED TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM, NOT ARGUE OVER WHO STARTED IT. The individuals with the current power of negotiating are the only ones that can still do anything. 500 TSA pilots or 8000 united pilots, who do you think has more power?? Ask any regional pilot if they would like to work at a mainline carrier, and given the few that live at base, I bet most would love to go to mainline!

 

[Smarta$$]

We had no leverage either, the regional pilots kept undercutting us everytime we tried to make a stand. Go -jets is simply the next step beyond that.

By the time the regional guys figured out they screwed themselves by accepting the flying for garbage wages and tried to correct it mgmt. simply implimented phase 2.......alter ego.

Your leverage was scope! Very powerful. If no one else can do the flying, than they have to negotiate in good faith with you. But you guys gave that up. We never had the leverage that you gave up.

 

[Smarta$$]

Actually the alter ego thing was used against us, among other threats.

The regional MEC's also put considerable pressure on the mainline to release jets to them.

And the final nail was the payrates they were willing to fly it for, once mgmt. heard that, there was no way they were going to let the RJ come to mainline....they knew we (mainline pilots) would never allow them to be flown for those wages at the time. So mainline MEC figured all they could hope to do was control the number of them and improve the contract.

Fast forward 6 years and mainline wages have been dragged down to match the regionals......again no way that could have happened if the regionals had held the line to at least getting a semi fair wage for the rj. We didn't have the power to stop it ourselves without regional pilots backing, however you guys are quick to blame us for not helping now!!! Well sorry, but you cut our johnsons off back in 01 and 02 so now the mainline does not have any leverage left....the regional pilots shiney jet syndrome saw to that.

I dont care how much pressure you say you got from regional MEC's. You still had to sign yes. If you cant stand up to pressure I dont think you should be flying airplanes. "I went without enough fuel because the dispatcher pressured me to go". FAA "but your the captain right?" You "Yes, but they were putting alot of pressure on me so I went without enough fuel".

You see you still signed. Ever heard of the word NO. thier would be no jets to fly at shatty wages if you guys would stop giving them out to the cheapest bidder. Your group has made us subcontractors on a much bigger scale. Subcontractors have no leverage to raise prices.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Your leverage was scope! Very powerful. If no one else can do the flying, than they have to negotiate in good faith with you. But you guys gave that up. We never had the leverage that you gave up.

You guys at TSA had a scope clause didn't you? How did that work out for you?

In 1999 when my airline was dealing with the first RJ issues all we heard from the regional guys is how we were trying to screw them by not giving them the planes and how we should release our scope clause.

Then when we simply could not stop the jets from going to regionals short of shutting down the airline we relented and gave limited relief, which turned into massive transfer of flying to the regionals.

Yet somehow now 7 years later we are now the bastards for giving up the scope?

It is not too hard to find the attitudes that we got from the regional guys in those days, plenty of back issues of ALPA pubs and websites.

A good one would probably be USAviation.....back then there were massive arguments on the site concerning this problem, and pretty much every one of the regional guys was demanding that we give unlimited scope relief. Well, you guys got your wish. Not quite the utopia you envisioned huh?

We always were willing to fly the RJ. Mgmt. and the regional pilots were the ones that didn't want that. No amount of revisionist history will change that.

The regional pilots of the day and his willingness to fly the planes for next to nothing is a huge contributer to the problem we face today. Mistakes were made on both sides for sure, but as far as the RJ issue, this was probably the biggest and most costly to the industry.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I dont care how much pressure you say you got from regional MEC's. You still had to sign yes. If you cant stand up to pressure I dont think you should be flying airplanes. "I went without enough fuel because the dispatcher pressured me to go". FAA "but your the captain right?" You "Yes, but they were putting alot of pressure on me so I went without enough fuel".

You see you still signed. Ever heard of the word NO. thier would be no jets to fly at shatty wages if you guys would stop giving them out to the cheapest bidder. Your group has made us subcontractors on a much bigger scale. Subcontractors have no leverage to raise prices.

OK so why didn't you shut down TSA when Go jets was formed? Other than the fact that you were not an airline pilot at the time that is.

Shut the thing down now! Just say no until the flying is brought back to your side of the company.

If you young punks want to talk the talk, lets see you do what we were not willing to do back in 99.....shut it down.

Go ahead, it is simple, just don't go to work for your next rip.

 

[f/o(forever)]

OK so why didn't you shut down TSA when Go jets was formed? Other than the fact that you were not an airline pilot at the time that is.

Shut the thing down now! Just say no until the flying is brought back to your side of the company.

If you young punks want to talk the talk, lets see you do what we were not willing to do back in 99.....shut it down.

Go ahead, it is simple, just don't go to work for your next rip.

We Will! In contract negotiations now! We almost struck in 2000, close to a hundred percent vote. And how old do you think I am?

 

[f/o(forever)]

Striking illegally is just that illegal! We would all have to quit, I'm all for it but I don't think to many will follow!!

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Striking illegally is just that illegal! We would all have to quit, I'm all for it but I don't think to many will follow!!

So why is it that you think we should have struck illegally back in 99-02? ("Hold the scope line")

By the time we (mainline) were "legal" to shut it down, all the younger guys were furloughed, their routes being flown by the RJ's and their airplanes parked in the desert, and what was left was desperately trying to hold on to their pensions! So you see the problem, the only pilots that had the years left to get anything out of the strike were already gone, victims of the kids with SJS. What was left had to give up the fight in the futile hope of saving their retirement......which went away anyhow.

I know all about strikes, did it last year, final result? Got a pay raise and a snappy "Battlewings" pin from ALPA....and a furlough notice 6 months later when the company transferred half the flying to a sister company. Grievances will probably be pending for the next ten years as a result, but the result is the same.......half an airline out of work. That makes two furloughs and a strike for me so far........what have you trash talkers done to try to stop the slide? Smack talking on an internet board and denying jumpseats ain't gonna cut it!!!

So you see, when it is all said and done, the regional pilot was the only ones with any true power in all this, they were the ones that needed to refuse to fly the jets for the low wages.

However I do wish you guys luck in the negotiations.

 

[Beanie]

Just for informational purposes for the young loudmouths that came into the industry AFTER all this happened...here are some pay rates to consider.

You are going to hate comparing them to your payscale on the RJ.

1998 payrate for RJ's. RJ being defined as F-28's, prior to the regional boys whoring themselves out.

F-28 second Year Capt. $92.42
F-28 second year F/O $46.21

Even now 8 years later RJ payrates don't even come close to this number.

That is what mainline tried to preserve...and with the regional pilots help we could have done it, Instead we had the rug pulled out from under us Go jet style....get the jet at any price.

BINGO! Mainline may have been played to give up the scope, but that is no excuse for regional pilots doing it for half the rate. Thank God somebody understands this and the fact that it was the watershed moment in the aviation industry. They did the flying for less than they should have to try to get to mainline, with no thought about what it would do to the industry. Now they are pissed that someone else is doing it in a "worse" way than they did. You reap what you sow.