Progress at the Table?

[outtahere]

Seems that all of a sudden negotiations have taken off for us ASA pilots. Seems Joey and the Jackson five are SOL. It is amazing that when ASA needs the contract done, all of a sudden things are easy. It is a little premature to get to excited, but I am very hopeful we get something hammered out soon. To all those who were ready to cut and run, maybe for Christmas you can ask Santa for a set of balls, of course Joey and his clan are on the naughty list for being selfserving A$$es.

 

[jegermeister]

I'm glad that you could see the big picture so clearly. Don't think for a moment that the MEC/CNC didn't feel the pressure from the latest poll numbers and the threat of new blood.

Over all I think we will all benefit in having a new contract. Regardless of the politics behind it.

 

[FightingIrish]

I'm glad that you could see the big picture so clearly. Don't think for a moment that the MEC/CNC didn't feel the pressure from the latest poll numbers and the threat of new blood.

Over all I think we will all benefit in having a new contract. Regardless of the politics behind it.

You hit the nail on the head jeger! I believe our side is moving because of the election. That is good for ALL of us, regardless of who wins.

 

[~~~^~~~]

of course Joey and his clan are on the naughty list for being selfserving A$$es.

How so? How does volunteering to do work make a person "self serving?"

If someone, anyone, is running for office it is because they think they can do a good job in a service position. With the ASA negotiations it appeared to many of us that ALPA National had a position and Bob Arnold had a position which was effecting the negotiations being done on behalf of the ASA pilots.

What do all the candidates have in common?

All of these people are seniority list pilots who are not currently looking to leave ASA. That means all of these people are going to be a part of this pilot group over the long term and all have the same long term interest. Like Fighting Irish said, perhaps the strength of the nomination numbers and campaign has resulted in some movement so that those in power can get this done while they are firmly in power.

Of course it is also likely that being in the home stretch of 4, or 5, requests for proposals which SkyWest can not logistically fly (if awarded more than 1, or 2) management came to the table more willing to do business.

It appears there is a 40 to 60 day window to get this wrapped up. After that the RFP airplanes will have to have been allocated and the benefit of getting this contract done in the near term will have evaporated.

After that, ALPA and Management will probably both drop anchor and prepare for boarders.

 

[Bizjet]

You hit the nail on the head jeger! I believe our side is moving because of the election. That is good for ALL of us, regardless of who wins.

Who are you including in "our side"? Just because you are a seniority list pilot doesn't put you on the pilots side unless most of your post were posted by your management ALTEREGO! You just want to "get it done" which means that you want to get your qualifications for that mainline job and cut and run. I predict that you will be the biggest bitcher on this forum if you end up not "getting it done" with your mainline quest. I guarantee that the MEC will not cave because of the election. The support numbers are still very strong which your little cadre of "get it done" self servers are still the small but vocal minority. If the MEC caves on this contract it will no pass pilot ratification and both ASA management and ALPA will be in the parking lot for a long time. If it should pass by a small majority in a few months you won't be able to find any pilot who says they voted for it!

Management is the party that is on a short time line because JA is ready to pull the plug on this mismanagement team. Either way most of them will be gone soon. I hope the small group of self-servers like yourself are gone before they are. Don't forget that the mediator forced the company to meet with him for a day before the negotiations were allowed to start again. It wasn't for the purpose of giving out awards for proficient negotiating stategies.

Maybe YOU, OhPlease, JoeMerchant and his OLDER girlfriend can apply as the Sell Out Coalition and get a great job at SkyWest. Maybe JA could use you as his house boy.

 

[www.]

Don't think for a moment that the MEC/CNC didn't feel the pressure from the latest poll numbers and the threat of new blood.

hahaha, that's good! LJ and group a threat.

 

[Sinca3]

Or the request for a proffer is still lingering over mgmnt´s head. There was a meeting on the first day of negotiations that only the mediator and ASA were present. I´m sure in this meeting the mediator made it known that the proffer of arbitration hadn´t been denied yet for a reason. Also told them that their lack of progress at the table was unacceptable. I also know that the mediator is unhappy that there is a transfer of assets to another airline to pressure the pilot group in these negotiations.
Just my opinion but I bet the house this had more to do with the sudden movement than anything else.

 

[Richard Gozinya]

....regardless of who wins.

Keep your head in the sand, it is ALL about winning with the company, period!

Dick

 

[~~~^~~~]

Bizjet - Why the personal slams? I don't get it.

Have you ever been with an "older woman?" Those of us who have, don't understand why you think it is a bad thing. Since my young, hot, wife occassionally reads this board I can not go into great detail but if you have the chance to drive a 66 Shelby GT350, or anything built in the 1980's, take the Mustang for a ride. You will not regret it.

 

[Bizjet]

How so? How does volunteering to do work make a person "self serving?"

What do all the candidates have in common?

All of these people are seniority list pilots who are not currently looking to leave ASA. That means all of these people are going to be a part of this pilot group over the long term and all have the same long term interest. Like Fighting Irish said, perhaps the strength of the nomination numbers and campaign has resulted in some movement so that those in power can get this done while they are firmly in power.

Most of us know that you are good friends with JoeMerchant and his Lady?Friend. If you can't see through their thin facade you need glasses. They are the TWO MOST SELFSERVING INDIVIDUALS TO EVER DO ALPA WORK! They both are pissed because they can't take over the union from those they hate. They blame most of the current leadership for keeping them from destroying the union from within. Their agenda is to GET EVEN. Just try to take off the blinders and see them for what they are and not what your experience at the Buffet Concerts or on their sailboat The SS Minnow has been. Sure they are fun drunks but when it is time to represent the majority they will do as they dang well please and the pilot group be danged.

You should acknowledge those that are serving the pilots wishes as mandated by the majority in the Wilson Center polling. The anti-union, anti-MEC is nothing more than the "get it done" crowd that wants to get their time and get that mainline job. They don't care about the majority they want it all and they want it now! JoeyMerchant and LJ have proven time and again that they will do two thing when they are in office either elected or appointed:
1. They will enrichen themselves at the majority's expense.
2. They will then do whatever it takes to get even with those that have shown the leadership to get them out of positions of trust! They have proven that they can't be trusted over several attempts at union work. When they are caught with their hand in the cookie jar they lie like 4 year olds. The ASA pilots should only be represented by those that use Pilot Polling to drive their decisions.

Soon enough ALPA will see the majority of the membership become regional pilots. I hope that when that day occurs that we have mature competent leadership that doesn't have that JB and LJ vendetta of NOW IT IS PAY BACK TIME! Shortsighted individuals like them will destroy this UNION! It sickens me to listen to them try to protray themselves as victims.

Try placing your loyalties in those that show true leadership not those that you respect because of their loyalties to the RJDC, ASA management, Jimmy Buffet, or the Vocal Minority. You have more intelligence in 10% of your brain than the two of them combined. Don't be fooled by your naivete, LJ and JB will turn on you or anyone who gets in their way.

 

[Bizjet]

Bizjet - Why the personal slams? I don't get it.

Have you ever been with an "older woman?" Those of us who have, don't understand why you think it is a bad thing. Since my young, hot, wife occassionally reads this board I can not go into great detail but if you have the chance to drive a 66 Shelby GT350, or anything built in the 1980's, take the Mustang for a ride. You will not regret it.

They make it personal so I respond in kind. The MEC is too busy representing pilots to respond to their drivel. Those of us that support our MEC respond to their lies and keep them exposed for what they are truly about!

Well JB took a vintage 50's Chevette for many test drives. He just didn't bother to ask the owner. The car didn't mind him driving it but I wonder why he thought so little of the owner. Either way it is grand theft auto and is against the law. When he finally decided to steal the Chevette the owner filed a complaint and Geico gave him $100 dollars for his loss because the Chevette was high mileage and was proven to be unreliable when needed.

I wonder if he regrets his test drive??????

 

[~~~^~~~]

What? That was funny, but be sure you can pass the next drug test.

Never been to Buffet with 'em, or the SS Minnow, never been invited. Loose Cannon, maybe; out for themselves, not at all.

Are you and I out for ourselves on this board? It doesn't make us money and sure doesn't make us popular. I think we do it because we hope to influence the process to improve the place. Their motivations are the same as ours.

You disagree with them about nearly everything. I disagree with some of their positions, but realize many of their divergent views need to be considered and responded to by our union. If ALPA would listen to its members at the small jet carriers it would be a better union - and we need a strong ALPA more now than ever.

 

[outtahere]

Hold up guys, fins most of your posts are okay, but to say that a person who has been recalled once already by our Union is the one we should be listening to now is insane. They are self-serving, and cowardly. They are so worried that some of our higher paying airplanes may disappear that they are willing to sell the farm to keep them here. They are trying to look out only for the most senior here and to hell with the rest of the group. By the way, I volunteer as well, and my main objective is to get a contract that holds up the bar, even if it isn't raised. Back to my original point, something has lit a fire under mgmt, because this is the first time that significant movement has been registerd at the table. Oh and Fighting Irish, you should be ashamed to call yourself an Irish fan with your duck and cover approach to everything. You truely are a disgrace to this pilot group.

 

[FightingIrish]

Who are you including in "our side"? Just because you are a seniority list pilot doesn't put you on the pilots side unless most of your post were posted by your management ALTEREGO! You just want to "get it done" which means that you want to get your qualifications for that mainline job and cut and run. I predict that you will be the biggest bitcher on this forum if you end up not "getting it done" with your mainline quest. I guarantee that the MEC will not cave because of the election. The support numbers are still very strong which your little cadre of "get it done" self servers are still the small but vocal minority. If the MEC caves on this contract it will no pass pilot ratification and both ASA management and ALPA will be in the parking lot for a long time. If it should pass by a small majority in a few months you won't be able to find any pilot who says they voted for it!

Management is the party that is on a short time line because JA is ready to pull the plug on this mismanagement team. Either way most of them will be gone soon. I hope the small group of self-servers like yourself are gone before they are. Don't forget that the mediator forced the company to meet with him for a day before the negotiations were allowed to start again. It wasn't for the purpose of giving out awards for proficient negotiating stategies.

Maybe YOU, OhPlease, JoeMerchant and his OLDER girlfriend can apply as the Sell Out Coalition and get a great job at SkyWest. Maybe JA could use you as his house boy.

Bizjet, you need help. There is alot of room between "caveing" and what we currently are asking for. I don't want a paycut, and we won't get a paycut. However I also don't want to become the next ACA or the next CMR. If you call that "self-serving" then so be it! I am interested in protecting my job.

I shouldn't have even waisted my time responding to you as you will come back with your usual drivel.

 

[FightingIrish]

hahaha, that's good! LJ and group a threat.

Something has lit a fire under the current administration.

www. , you have told me in PMs that there have been mistakes made up to this point. You have told me that Bob A. is still running things through Newie. You have also told me that even Danny has concerns about Newie and Bob. You told me that the two senior members of the CNC need to go and that Newie needs to go. Even you were heavily involved in ALPA up until recently, but you quit because of Bob.

If mistakes have been made as you have indicated, isn't it time for a change?

 

[FightingIrish]

Keep your head in the sand, it is ALL about winning with the company, period!

Dick

My head isn't in the sand. I am looking at the BIG picture, are you? Did CMR "win with the company"? If so, that isn't the type of "winning" I am looking for.

 

[jegermeister]

Something has lit a fire under the current administration.

www. , you have told me in PMs that there have been mistakes made up to this point. You have told me that Bob A. is still running things through Newie. You have also told me that even Danny has concerns about Newie and Bob. You told me that the two senior members of the CNC need to go and that Newie needs to go. Even you were heavily involved in ALPA up until recently, but you quit because of Bob.

If mistakes have been made as you have indicated, isn't it time for a change?

Uh Oh,

Careful Irish, you're getting too close to the truth. Now the name calling, finger pointing, and whinning are really going to start.

You're never going to reason with these guys. They only understand the party line. Any attempt to look outside of that view/paradigm only pisses them off. Thankfully this is not a dictatorship.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Bob A. is not on the seniority list - how is he running things? Why would he be running things, without pay? Why would we let him run things?

The only motivations to stick around would be vengence or altruism. What is going on?

Please elaborate.

 

[COOPERVANE]

I'll believe it when it's printed, bound and put into my box. Until then, I'm not getting my hopes up. We have been here before, and disappointed repeatedly.

I heard that we are telling MGMT we will WALK without FULL retro. I hope not 'cause we aint gonna get that!!

 

[~~~^~~~]

They are self-serving, and cowardly. They are so worried that some of our higher paying airplanes may disappear that they are willing to sell the farm to keep them here. They are trying to look out only for the most senior here and to hell with the rest of the group.

Huh, this makes no sense. The most senior are not effected by the fleet reductions and would not benefit as much from potential growth. They are above that.

Further, do any of them fly the CRJ-700? I thought they were all ATR and CR200 folks - because they like those schedules better.

And brave, well they are braver than we are, or else you would see our names on the ballot.

I've got no problem with arguing the merits of their ideas and if you think a conservative contract for growth is stupid, fine. ALPA swinging for the fences is considered by other people to be a little dumb given that ALPA has failed to stop predatory whipsaw and will not use the tools in its bag to grow and protect ALPA carriers. I'm a moderate stuck between those positions who realizes you can't kick your current bargaining agent in the nuts at the same time you need $2 million a year.

Thank you for your volunteer work. It is the grass roots volunteers that make ALPA great.

 

[jegermeister]

"I've got no problem with arguing the merits of their ideas and if you think a conservative contract for growth is stupid, fine. ALPA swinging for the fences is considered by other people to be a little dumb given that ALPA has failed to stop predatory whipsaw and will not use the tools in its bag to grow and protect ALPA carriers. I'm a moderate stuck between those positions who realizes you can't kick your current bargaining agent in the nuts at the same time you need $2 million a year. "


Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[601Pilot]

I'll believe it when it's printed, bound and put into my box. Until then, I'm not getting my hopes up. We have been here before, and disappointed repeatedly.

I heard that we are telling MGMT we will WALK without FULL retro. I hope not 'cause we aint gonna get that!!

That's my position - FULL RETRO! Otherwise, they will just do this again in 4 more years. It would take a lot of improvements to other sections for me to even budge on this issue and I doubt management will do that.

 

[IFLYASA]

That's my position - FULL RETRO! Otherwise, they will just do this again in 4 more years. It would take a lot of improvements to other sections for me to even budge on this issue and I doubt management will do that.

Full Retro by all means. They say they won't give it, but they will have to for me to vote yes. I have been putting us with this BS for 4 years. Besides, it's a one time thing, if won't affect earnings per share. Just a lump sum out of their fat bank account.

 

[Bizjet]

Bizjet, you need help. There is alot of room between "caveing" and what we currently are asking for. I don't want a paycut, and we won't get a paycut. However I also don't want to become the next ACA or the next CMR. If you call that "self-serving" then so be it! I am interested in protecting my job.

I shouldn't have even waisted my time responding to you as you will come back with your usual drivel.

O.K. So you don't think the elected reps are interested in their job security? Why would they try to destroy the airline? Every negotiation has management trying to break our resolve. Unfortunately it worked for the first two contracts. In '98' the pilots were pushed over the edge with a management that was use to getting their way and offering nothing for the pilots in return. This MEC is doing nothing more than honoring the wishes of the majority according to the Wilson polling data. Do you think that it is better to have the MEC change directions because you and others of the VOCAL minority demand it on this and the ASA MEC message boards? Real leaders stay the course. We are fortunate to have seasoned leaders during this critical time. They have a track record of integrity and leadership. If it is not what you want then cast your vote against them. A weak MEC would have already caved to the vocal minority and you could have already had a concessionary contract to live with for the next 8 to 10 years.

Someone else in a previous post made a statement that Regional pilots are not as unified as mainline pilots. When mainline pilots are asked to picket they don't start second guessing the leadership they show up and picket. Why? Because it shows management that the pilots are solidly behind their elected leadership. The Delta pilots showed up in force to show management that they supported their MEC and could not be divided. FedEx called for picketing at multiple locations and their pilots responded in strong numbers. Some were on layovers and came to picket. It would be to everyone's advantage to let the leaders lead and then follow and support them or vote them out of office if you don't like what they are doing. I can't understand why your post always appear to demand that they do what you tell them because they work for you. They also work for 1700+ other pilots and are doing the will of the majority even if you don't agree. When you and a few others make demands on the elected officials to do your will you are basically telling the majority of you brother and sister pilots that you place yourself and your demands above them. Is that what you actually believe??

Go to the ALPA office and offer to help. It gives a good insight into how much is actually going on daily to obtain a contract that reflects the desires of the majority. The contract will not make everyone happy but it should reflect reasonable improvements over what we have been living with for 8 years. Now is not the time to panic or make unreasonable demands for personal reasons. Stay the course and support your MEC or take your complaints to your elected officials for possible resolution. They are not trying to destroy your career but give you the contract that the pilots have demanded.

 

[FightingIrish]

Bob A. is not on the seniority list - how is he running things? Why would he be running things, without pay? Why would we let him run things?

The only motivations to stick around would be vengence or altruism. What is going on?

Please elaborate.

Well fins, www. has been private messaging me since the elections started. The reason is he was originally considering running and I was thinking of supporting him. He has a lot of knowledge of negotiations and of ALPA.He supports the Utley campaign and is definately not an ASACoalition/LJ fan. I won't say who he is, but up until recently, he did a lot of grievance work for ASA ALPA. He left because of a falling out with Bob.

What he said in his PM, really bothers me. Again, he supports the Utley coalition, but says we have had problems with our current leadership. Here is what this individual said:


www. said:

"I am not going to run for a reps position. I have talked to a few former MEC people and I see it like this.

1. There is too much power in Dave N. hands right now. There is a great deal of dissatisfaction with Dave from some former MEC members.
2. Dave N. is not running the ship. He is in constant contact with Bob Arnold and Dave is following in his foot steps. Not good.
3. There was 1 MEC member that had voiced his concerns about a year ago about the direction of contract neg. It seems to me it was all about Bob, now all about Dave. Bob is living his battle thru Dave.
4. DALALPA, my point is that just a relationship is not enough at this point. We should be locking up the future flying thru them if they do not want it.
5. RJDC is dead for now.
6. There was a conflict of interest the last contract with John B. He was a pay for trn guy and he walked away from the table with money in his pocket. He increased the refund money for a select few, a select group which John was apart. That is not professional. And it was not looking out for the entire pilot group.

Bob and I could have done that during 70 seat neg. The company proposed that they pay FO less than the current percentage. Meaning that Cpts would have walked away with more in their pockets than the FOs would have. We told the company no, we are going to stick to the current percentage that we have set up in our current contract. We could have screwed the 70 seat FOs but we didn't. We took the high road and did the right thing and that is being a professional and representing the whole group.

Some things to think about when it comes time to put people in certain positions. I feel that the problem is not the MEC as a whole but a certain person. There have been several suggestions made to help the process along but someone has failed to act."

 

[FightingIrish]

"I've got no problem with arguing the merits of their ideas and if you think a conservative contract for growth is stupid, fine. ALPA swinging for the fences is considered by other people to be a little dumb given that ALPA has failed to stop predatory whipsaw and will not use the tools in its bag to grow and protect ALPA carriers. I'm a moderate stuck between those positions who realizes you can't kick your current bargaining agent in the nuts at the same time you need $2 million a year. "


Couldn't have said it better myself.

Same here!!

 

[FightingIrish]

O.K. So you don't think the elected reps are interested in their job security? Why would they try to destroy the airline?

Bizjet,

I do think they are interested in job security and I don't think they "want" to destroy the airline. Why do you have to make everything personal? Can't a pilot disagree with another pilot without you questioning the motives?

There are only 2 elected reps. at ASA now. Will F. and Newie. Will is too immature and sometimes only wants to fight. Newie is still listening to Bob A. too much and is in way over his head. That has been confirmed by members of the Utley coalition.

They may not "want" to destroy the airline, but I'm afraid the current path will lead to it's destruction ala CMR. Sometimes unions and union leaders push the envelope too far and that can lead to our destruction.

By the way, I have been to the ALPA office and the strike center. I have helped. The last time I helped at the strike center, I had to hear juvenile personal attacks on the LJ coalition and how bad they would be. They all said they would quit if the LJ coalition wins. That was enough for me. I'll stay on the sidelines for now, ready to jump back in when we have a change at the helm.

 

[goahead]

Full retro ha ha ha are ya'll serious. I'd love it also, but I live on a planet called earth. Our stupid asz company could in no way figure that out, hell I got paid $87.00 on my 15th check last month for no dam_n reason WTF.
I say a signing bonus will be what we get across the board for everyone, 700 pay will stay the same and about four dollars more an hour for the 200 guys. I agree something or this past 4+ years has been for nothing.

 

[FightingIrish]

Here is some more of what www. had to say in his private messages. Seems even the Utley coalition isn't happy with the current leadership and gameplan. Looks like there will be a change regardless of who wins.

www. said:


"Lets make things very clear. I do not support Lynn and or John B.
Also, I also do not support what Dave N. is doing. Danny did not vote for Dave N. nor did Dave Mohr. Danny voted for Tom and Dave didn't vote. Dave N. and Will for Dave N. I feel Danny, if he is elected, would turn the ship around if you know what I mean. I feel Dave Mohr would also along with Nick. They are not happy with the game plan as it stands. I am sticking with the tried and true. Bob Arnold manipulated people and Dave, Tom and John Rice are just a few. Now that Danny has seen the true Dave N., I am giving him a second chance to turn it around. Danny's performance has been on point since he began doing ALPA work.

So I am leaving my options open for something else. Locking myself in as a "Cpts Rep" would limit my ability to do things in the future. I feel my talents could be used in other ways."

 

[COOPERVANE]

Full retro ha ha ha are ya'll serious. I'd love it also, but I live on a planet called earth. Our stupid asz company could in no way figure that out, hell I got paid $87.00 on my 15th check last month for no dam_n reason WTF.
I say a signing bonus will be what we get across the board for everyone, 700 pay will stay the same and about four dollars more an hour for the 200 guys. I agree something or this past 4+ years has been for nothing.

I agree. Call it a signing bonus, whatever you want, but our company couldn't possibly figure out retro pay. Too incompetent

They do need SOME incentive to not drag this out next time, but FULL RETRO is just unrealistic. From what I understand, it would be hard to prove/claim that management was 100% responsible for ALL the delays over the past 4 years. 90% maybe but not 100%