Pro and Con fractional vs corporate

[flydog]

What company do you work for GV Flyer?

 

[Jetz]

Sorry, but

Sorry to be a bit negative, but Company stock is not a perk that I would put too much weight in, especially given the environment we are in now.

There have been MANY large flight departments that have dissolved due to buyouts with the requisite drop in company stock value.

In my experience, here is the bottom line. There are NO guarantees in ANY flying job of a future or a solid retirement. Look at Pan Am, or Eastern. Look at any one of the large flight depts that have closed down ...Nabisco, etc. It is just a matter of making an informed decision, saying a prayer (at least one per day) and enjoying the job you have while it lasts...and then when it fizzles, make your next move. It is a jungle out there.

Some of us are lucky enough to remain on top of the food chain for most or all of our careers.... Most of us will not be that fortunate.

 

[EJA Capt]

Re: Re: Re: Corporate versus fractional

I don't want to quibble, but that would be 497 more companies than there are fractionals.

Not exactly true. There are 3 "major" players and dozens of other fractionals. Furthermore, the major fractionals are not fighting for slots on 1 or 2 aircraft. EJI has 45 Gulfstreams of there own.


The federal limit is 10% or $11,000, whichever is greater, that may be contributed to a 401k. So do the math. The maximum salary that you could earn and contribute 20% to your 401k would be 55,000. Thus the maximum value of this benefit is 5500 dollars.

Actually, I have done the math. Although I did mis-speak, our limit is 15% not 20%. The 2002 limit of $11,000 is ONLY the employee contributuion, not the employer's contribution.
If I may:
"The Executive Jet Aviation, Inc. 401(k) Retirement Plan ...The Employer will make matching contributions in an amount equal to 15 %."

From 401K.com:
"The IRS has also set limits on the total amount that may be contributed to your 401(k) account from all sources combined, including any employer matching or profit-sharing contribution, and any employee after-tax contributions. For 2002, the maximum is the lesser of 100% of compensation or $40,000. The $40,000 limit will increase in $1,000 increments based on cost of living adjustments."

"you may become eligible to make salary deferral, pre-tax, catch-up contributions beginning January 1st of the year you turn age 50. These contributions are in addition to your regular deferral contributions. Catch-up contributions start at $1,000 for 2002, and increase by $1,000 a year until they reach $5,000 in 2006."


If there is a deadhead return from destination and the aircraft is not scheduled we may delay our return to home station. [/B]

In the case of dead-heading on empty aircraft, EJA has the same policy for its' employees.

 

[GVFlyer]

Re: Something is amiss here...

Ok, Ok... what is going on... something doesn't add up here....

You say .....

Well I have a news flash for you, NO Company made $22 Billion profit last year....


Food for thought

That kind of research over irrelevent issues may be the product of too much toilet training as a child, but you're right. I mispoke; I should have said "revenues", which were in excess of what I stated, not "earnings".







.

 

[GVFlyer]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Corporate versus fractio

Originally posted by EJA Capt

EJI has 45 Gulfstreams of there own.

Yes, I know. I'm qualified and have flown as an EJI Captain at my previous company where we purchased Gulfstream shares for supplemental lift. Those guys have the same 401k as you do, but their direct compensation is quite a bit more.

Actually, I have done the math. Although I did mis-speak, our limit is 15% not 20%. The 2002 limit of $11,000 is ONLY the employee contributuion, not the employer's contribution.

What did you make in math? No matter how you explain it, 50% of $11,000 remains $5500.

In the final analysis EJA non-BBJ Captain pay starts at 37,560 and tops with 14 years seniority at 95,784 on the 17 day schedule and 106,284 for the guys willing to do flex.

BBJ pay starts at 135k and tops at 209k after 13 years seniority with some cola adjustments after that. There is no separate Captain scale in that you do not have union Captains yet.

The rest of what you quoted is appropriate only to those not deemed "highly compensated".

In the case of dead-heading on empty aircraft, EJA has the same policy for its' employees.

What I was trying to suggest to you is that if we place our dependents on an occupied leg and the return from that destination is deadhead, we may remain at that destination with our loved ones for a few days before deadheading home. EJA does not allow family members on occupied customer legs, so no, EJA does not have the same policy for it's employees.








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[GVFlyer]

Re: Sorry, but

Sorry to be a bit negative, but Company stock is not a perk that I would put too much weight in, especially given the environment we are in now.

Actually, the problem is not where you think. Let's say your company allows you to buy 10% of your annual salary at 85% of the lowest stock price during the last calendar year. If you make 200k, that means you will invest 20,000. Let's continue by saying that lowest value of the stock was 50 bucks. 85% of 50 is 42.50. So that will give you about 470.6 shares. If the stock closes at $75.00, your 20,000 smacks is now worth 35,294. If you cash out you have to pay tax on the 15k+ of previously undeclared income. It's the same on the stock options, they are given to you generally at a strike price well below market value, but are not income until you exercise them. They are referred to around here as the "Golden Handcuffs".

 

[GVFlyer]

Re: Realistic?

While this job OBVIOUSLY paints a very rosy picture, I don't think that it is realistic to hold that up as any kind of typical job.

Unfortunately or fortunately as you may feel, there are better jobs than mine in the Gulfstream community.

I don't know who this job is, or where it is based... BUT i would be willing to bet that there are dozens of guys networked up with everyone involved in this operation just waiting for one of the pilots to get a heart murmur.

Im not trying to wish ill will on anyone. I am just saying that with this job, I bet they won't be advertising. I bet there is probably a short list of people who everyone has in mind if they need someone.

You're a smart man JP, yes, we already know who we are going to hire when there is an opening.


Gawd! A minor victory! A post that I will not have to edit for spelling. The prefect post!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

yeah really I must say you should ALL persue the FRACTIONALS!
Us guys in the corporate world really have it bad, no vacations or days off, 6-7 weeks on the road at a clip, treated like garbage by "some rich dude".....and the terrible pay and no benefits or retirement..
definitly go fractional, dont even think about a corporate 91 job........
oooppss...
there goes my pager again.....
gotta get that resume over to EJA.

 

[GVFlyer]

Corporate vs. fracs


Did I mention our loss of license, which at 60% of our salary tax-free would probably be a pay increase? Or that our corporate policy is to only fly aircraft that are in warranty so that in January 2004 when our first GV reaches it's sixth birthday, it will be replaced by a new GVSP.

 

[Jetz]

Hey GV

Hey GV driver, are you based at TEB?

 

[JayDub]

GVFlyer,

First off, let me congratulate you on your job. This sounds like a real jim-dandy deal, and am glad to hear whenever a pilot gets what they are worth. From your profile, it looks like you have worked very hard for it. Again, congratulations.

Second, let me tell you about my experience. When I took a job with a Fortune 1000 job, I thought I had made it as well. After 10 months, however, I got the old "not only did I not promise you that, but I would have NEVER promised you that" talk. I felt obligated to follow through on my verbal commitment of two years. My replacement only lasted 10 months.

The point is, in these smaller jobs, it only take one person above you to ruin the whole deal. I can't begin to tell you the number of deals that have changed after you get there. You mentioned most of your work rules come from the chairman. What happens when he retires or dies? It changes the whole dynamic.

Don't forget how important the chief pilot is as well. What happens when your current chief pilot retires? Let's say they promote one of your good friends into the job and he turns out to be a lousy manager. You'll not only be less happy with your job, but also lose a good friend to boot. Sound impossible? It happens more than you know.

All of the factors are not identifiable in statistics. The only statistics that really tells the tale is the Fortune 500 turn over rate. When I went through grad school, the number was something like 60% of the Fortune 500 hadn't been on the list 10-20 years before. It is a changing force to be sure.

At my current job, many of these factors are now gone. I left my corporate job for a small, growing airline. I am making close to three times what I ever made in corporate, and I too have loss of license insurance. In addition, when I joined the company I, along with all other pilots, got 6000 shares of stock options. They seem to be working out pretty well right now.

The difference is I am one of over three hundred pilots at my company. I would be shocked if there are three hundred Gulfstream drivers that have as good of a deal as you. It is a simple matter of numbers. You have to go with the better odds.

I am in my early thirties and have a job it would probably take twenty plus years to get, if ever, in the corporate arena. As far as the fracs go, you'd be supporting your family much better, much sooner than most corporate operators. Again, it is a matter of simple numbers. Yes, there are only three major players in the frac industry. However, if you averaged the wages and benefits of all their pilots and compared them with the same numberof pilots from straight corporate operators, the fracs would be ahead by far.

I say straight corporate operators, but I ask for a little leeway. Few are straight corporate deals any more; even P&G is on a 135 certificate now. They are also on a set schedule, the last I knew. I believe it is six and four. What this means is, when you get back from China on day two of your days off, you go back on call in two days because there is no one else to cover your shift. Not to mention upgrade would take fifteen years, by their own estimate.

Again, I am glad for you and your family. However, I don't think this is a job to aspire to. I think you are much more likely to "luck" into it, which is exactly how most people get their jobs. Which puts us all, as pilots, on an equal footing. Your job is far from the norm. All you can do is point skyward and hope for the best. Take care.



JayDub

 

[GVFlyer]

Gulfstream 200

What are your impressions of the Galaxy? I saw where Gulstream just set some new class records in South America with one.

 

[GVFlyer]

Jay Dub,

Thanks for your excellent well thought out post. You have many valid points.

There are 470 G-IV's and over 160 GV's out there so there are a number of good jobs available. Finding some of them, is as you said luck, but my favorite definition of luck is: " Luck is when preparation meets opportunity". Alan Paulsen said it this way, "I never met a lazy man who was lucky." However, most of the the people I know in the stellar departments got there through networking.

Our corporate leadership is stable, our Chairman and the President are within one sigma of 50 and both are among the most highly compensated executives in the industry. There is little chance of them going anywhere and they both believe in the necessity of aviation to conduct efficient business. Before I accepted this position I had a friend who is a Wall Street analyst look at the company. He gave it a strong recommendation. So far it has worked out well. Last year, even with 9/11, was the companies best year ever. It had over 22 billion in revenues and is forecast to go to 50 billion in the near term. We'll see.

I agree with you that a jerk can ruin what would otherwise be a great job. Should that ever be the case, I have an open invitation to return to my previous job.

I agree with you that I wouldn't work for anyone with a 135 ticket. A friend who is now heading up Gulfstream, Bombardier, Dassault training for SimuFlite left a GV Chief Pilot job in the Northeast shortly after they went 135 when he found out that a.) he had no life and b.) he couldn't retain pilots with the schedule they were flying.

Congratulations on finding a meaningful and fulfilling job. I hope it's Jet Blue - they had a great financial report this morning.

Take Care -









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[banned username 2]

OK, I figured it out....

 

[niteflyr]

Excellent post Jaydub! I couldn't agree more and congrats on finding your job. I agree with the fact that the odds of finding a corporate job like GV are pretty slim, but like he said if you work at it long and hard enough and get lucky you could land it. I have worked many flying jobs and have now found EJA to be far above any of the other positions I have held. I am not in any way saying it is better than corporate or any other job, but for me I keep wondering how long it will last because it seems too good in comparison to my past jobs. I guess if you compare the odds of where pilots can get hired with the quality of the job, for the time being the frax may be the place to be. We all know how static this industry is though, things will always be changing.