Just finishing up my private cert I am already starting to look ahead. I want to be able to take the whole family and luggage to vacation and the only way I would be able to do that is by a multiengine plane. Does anyone think its a bad idea for a VFR pilot to go get his multi? Crunched the numbers and it is cheaper, let alone more convenient, to fly ourselves in a multi than to go commercially.
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Private to Multi....
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SEVEN
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With only 53 hours you will probably be better off getting your instrument rating first. I also doubt most insurance companies will cover you flying in a twin without your IFR rating and less than 100 hours. To answer your question: I think you're much better off either flying commercially or taking a non-complex airplane in VFR weather. Just my opinion though.
I was planning on renting the multi so insurance would be covered, but yeah, defaintely flying a complex plane would be more to work for sure. At the same time I am going to fly multi's sooner or later, so why not sooner...But 53 hours isnt a whole lot in a single by any means either....Hell, I just want to fly down to Disneyland and not deal with all of the commercial hassle haha.
I think what he's trying to say (and I agree) is that with less than 100 hours and no instrument rating, you'd be hard pressed to find an insurance company willing to let you fly a twin by yourself.
Can it be done? Sure...but the FBO is going to have a HUGE premium most likely if you're going to go solo in a twin at this point.
If you just want the multi time, then by all means, get your multi-private add-on...then get the instrument rating in a twin. Is it more expensive? Yeah...but by the time you get your instrument rating, you should be insurable solo. SHOULD be.
What kind of twin? If it's a TC Baron or similar, the insurance requirements will be higher, in fact if it's a Baron, they may require "formal" training. If it's a Seminole or other basic trainer, the insurance mins may be a bit lower.
-mini
Can it be done? Sure...but the FBO is going to have a HUGE premium most likely if you're going to go solo in a twin at this point.
If you just want the multi time, then by all means, get your multi-private add-on...then get the instrument rating in a twin. Is it more expensive? Yeah...but by the time you get your instrument rating, you should be insurable solo. SHOULD be.
What kind of twin? If it's a TC Baron or similar, the insurance requirements will be higher, in fact if it's a Baron, they may require "formal" training. If it's a Seminole or other basic trainer, the insurance mins may be a bit lower.
-mini
Whoa there cowboy, you're getting ahead of yourself a little bit.
I got my C340 two years ago after 20+ years of flying, an instrument rating, 1300 TT....all but 100 hours of which was in a Bonanza.
And my insurance company still wasn't real happy.
Required me to attend Flight Safety (with a refresher course every other year), and log 50 hours (10 of which was FS) of dual, and another 10 all by myself before they'd insure me.
My first year's premium was $15,000 btw. It's come down 30+% since then, and hopefully more next year.
As far as flying a private airplane b/c it's "cheaper" than an airline....
Don't kid yourself. They're MUCH more expensive over the long haul than an airline seat(s).
No private airplane justifies itself. We fly b/c we LOVE it, and can afford it, not b/c it's cheaper, or more convenient.....as evidenced by the number of hours you will sit in a terminal watching the Wx outside clear off enough to safely go....regardless of the airplane class. You'll wait far more than a commercial airline will over your lifetime.
But have fun...there's no greater joy to me.
I got my C340 two years ago after 20+ years of flying, an instrument rating, 1300 TT....all but 100 hours of which was in a Bonanza.
And my insurance company still wasn't real happy.
Required me to attend Flight Safety (with a refresher course every other year), and log 50 hours (10 of which was FS) of dual, and another 10 all by myself before they'd insure me.
My first year's premium was $15,000 btw. It's come down 30+% since then, and hopefully more next year.
As far as flying a private airplane b/c it's "cheaper" than an airline....
Don't kid yourself. They're MUCH more expensive over the long haul than an airline seat(s).
No private airplane justifies itself. We fly b/c we LOVE it, and can afford it, not b/c it's cheaper, or more convenient.....as evidenced by the number of hours you will sit in a terminal watching the Wx outside clear off enough to safely go....regardless of the airplane class. You'll wait far more than a commercial airline will over your lifetime.
But have fun...there's no greater joy to me.
hydroflyer
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Your best bet to help you make a decision is to find the FBO's in your area with a twin that you might want to rent. Ask them if after you get your rating, if they will let you fly the plane solo. There are some places that will provide multi training, but to lower their insurance costs, will not allow solo flight. Research that first, and it may give you the answer you need.
...
You'd never say that if you knew how old I am...
"and Jim...I hope they gave you lube with that bill for a $15k premium.....OUCH!
What caused the premium to be so high? Turbos? Was it 135? Pressurized? Just the second engine? Curious minds want to know."
________________________
It's not the two engines, turbo's, or 6 seats, b/c if it were just a C310R as I had been kicking tires on, my insurance company wouldn't have given it a second thought, but when you say "pressurized", they start running for cover.
Where I live (N-Ut), the rocks are high and weather's higher.
Fly an airplane that has to slug it out in the clouds/ice and they don't worry.
Fly an airplane that goes above it and the alarms go off.
2000flyer said:
You'd never say that if you knew how old I am...
"and Jim...I hope they gave you lube with that bill for a $15k premium.....OUCH!
What caused the premium to be so high? Turbos? Was it 135? Pressurized? Just the second engine? Curious minds want to know."
________________________
It's not the two engines, turbo's, or 6 seats, b/c if it were just a C310R as I had been kicking tires on, my insurance company wouldn't have given it a second thought, but when you say "pressurized", they start running for cover.
Where I live (N-Ut), the rocks are high and weather's higher.
Fly an airplane that has to slug it out in the clouds/ice and they don't worry.
Fly an airplane that goes above it and the alarms go off.
sky37d
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- Posts
- 999
Travis, I have some experience with this, so I'll offer some insight.
I got my PPL, and rented airplanes for a while. My wife said I should get my instrument rating, but as anyone will tell you, including me, you really should know the airplane, and you should practice in the same one everytime.
We bought a lot on an airpark, and decided we'd rent planes until the house was finished, then buy a Maule or something. The house got delayed, years, because of water problems, and we went looking at airplanes. I got a chance to fly a Skymaster, and happened to fly over the accident site of a couple our ages, who had an engine failure in their single engine airplane, and ended upside down in a field. They did not survive. I decided that our next, and first, plane would be a ME, despite all you hear about ME's taking you to the site of the accident.
So, with 138 hours total time, I went to Texas, to the ME school. Under the training thread, you'll find the subject 1295 ME course. I took it. No complex time until I got into the Beech Travelair. I passed, and came back and bought my Skymaster. It's a twin, it's centerline thrust, it has 6 seats, reasonable speed, and 4.5 years later I have >800 hours, all in the Skymaster. Insurance was an issue, but not as big as some people will have you believe. I got my Instrument rating in the Skymaster, with an instructor who my insurance company was happy with. The day after passing the checkride, my wife and I flew to the Bahamas. IMC all the way to BNA, and mostly IMC until FL.
So, here's my suggestion. Get the PPL, rent a plane for a while, and figure out what you want to own. Get your ME, buy the plane of your dreams, at least for now, and enjoy it.
Oh, yeah, temper that with the following wisdom. If the plane of your dreams is a Pressurized one, figure Flight Safety, every year, unless you are flying a lot of hours, and even then figure it for the first few. Also, insurance companies are not that keen on pressurized airplanes for newbie pilots, so insurance will be an issue the first year. I moved from 10K paved runways to 2700 ft grass strip, and my insurance is still cheaper than my first year.
It dropped a lot after year 1.
I got my PPL, and rented airplanes for a while. My wife said I should get my instrument rating, but as anyone will tell you, including me, you really should know the airplane, and you should practice in the same one everytime.
We bought a lot on an airpark, and decided we'd rent planes until the house was finished, then buy a Maule or something. The house got delayed, years, because of water problems, and we went looking at airplanes. I got a chance to fly a Skymaster, and happened to fly over the accident site of a couple our ages, who had an engine failure in their single engine airplane, and ended upside down in a field. They did not survive. I decided that our next, and first, plane would be a ME, despite all you hear about ME's taking you to the site of the accident.
So, with 138 hours total time, I went to Texas, to the ME school. Under the training thread, you'll find the subject 1295 ME course. I took it. No complex time until I got into the Beech Travelair. I passed, and came back and bought my Skymaster. It's a twin, it's centerline thrust, it has 6 seats, reasonable speed, and 4.5 years later I have >800 hours, all in the Skymaster. Insurance was an issue, but not as big as some people will have you believe. I got my Instrument rating in the Skymaster, with an instructor who my insurance company was happy with. The day after passing the checkride, my wife and I flew to the Bahamas. IMC all the way to BNA, and mostly IMC until FL.
So, here's my suggestion. Get the PPL, rent a plane for a while, and figure out what you want to own. Get your ME, buy the plane of your dreams, at least for now, and enjoy it.
Oh, yeah, temper that with the following wisdom. If the plane of your dreams is a Pressurized one, figure Flight Safety, every year, unless you are flying a lot of hours, and even then figure it for the first few. Also, insurance companies are not that keen on pressurized airplanes for newbie pilots, so insurance will be an issue the first year. I moved from 10K paved runways to 2700 ft grass strip, and my insurance is still cheaper than my first year.
It dropped a lot after year 1.
Last edited:
mzaharis
Sorry....meant to write before they'd insure me to fly passengers. They even restricted me from taking passengers with the instructor.
(who sat in the right seat and read a book, or slept a large part of the time we flew together).
_________________
"....The day after passing the checkride, my wife and I flew to the Bahamas. IMC all the way to BNA, and mostly IMC until FL. .."
Ok...you're gutsier than I am. I flew very little IMC for the first 100 hours in the 340, and that's with Collins Proline AP coupled to the Garmin430 and an Avidyne with downlink Wx.
It's only been in the last 6-8 months that I've felt comfortable in solid IMC in her, and I don't take off unless it's at worst, marginal VFR at my destination.
mzaharis said:
Sorry....meant to write before they'd insure me to fly passengers. They even restricted me from taking passengers with the instructor.
(who sat in the right seat and read a book, or slept a large part of the time we flew together).
_________________
"....The day after passing the checkride, my wife and I flew to the Bahamas. IMC all the way to BNA, and mostly IMC until FL. .."
Ok...you're gutsier than I am. I flew very little IMC for the first 100 hours in the 340, and that's with Collins Proline AP coupled to the Garmin430 and an Avidyne with downlink Wx.
It's only been in the last 6-8 months that I've felt comfortable in solid IMC in her, and I don't take off unless it's at worst, marginal VFR at my destination.
sky37d
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JimG said:
I guess I was at once fortunate and unfortunate. I did all my instrument work in my plane. It gave me a high level of confidence. I was unfortunate because it cost a lot of money, simulator would have been cheaper. I also did most of the IFR stuff in IMC conditions. I can remember shooting my first ILS, a night approach, at TVC, with 400' ceilings.
JimG said:
I had one of those rare "cheaper to fly yourself" moments. Roomate wanted me to fly with him to pick up his sister since he just got his Private so I agreed to tag along, but only if we could stop in Tampa so I could get a welder I bought on Ebay. The extra flight time was 1.2 hours, and the 172SP we rented at 100 or so made my portion 120 bucks. Shipping would have been 135, so I saved 15 bucks and got some free flight time.
CalifDan
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- Mar 13, 2006
- Posts
- 83
Low time Multi
You have gotten some good advice here regarding the issues of a low time PPL in a multi. I got my PPL in 1969, instrument in 1977 and multi in 1981. It was marginal in 1981 to be allowed to fly the twin after getting your multi rating because of insurance issues. I think they required 500 hours total time and the rating from the same flight school (FBO) that rented out the aricraft. Over the years, I kept enough multi time to just stay ahead of the increasing insurance requirements to allow me to rent.
We bought our Duchess this past year (first multi engine we have owned, but not first aircraft). The first year insurance was pretty high given I had no time in "make and model", even though I had 900 TT and over 100 multi. They did require 5 hours make and model (dual) before solo or passengers.
During the last year I got my commercial SEL (while the Duchess was spending time in the shop getting things fixed and upgraded) and also did my commercial MEL in the Duchess. My insurance dropped 30% going into year two. That is with the additional ratings and 150 hours make and model now. I'm told that another benchmark is 250 hours make and model....will find out next year perhaps.
I would be surprised if anyone can provide a twin for you at your experience level at a rate that will beat the airlines. Anything can be insured, but you should not assume that the act of "renting" an aircraft covers insurance issues. As you progress to more advanced aircraft, you will have those discussions with any FBO you use.
Also, you said you need a twin to fly family and baggage. There are many singles that will easily carry as much or more than our Duchess (a typical 4 seat twin), and for far less money. If you need six seats and baggage, you might think in terms of a Cherokee 6, however, I bet that you might not even meet the minimum time required to rent one of those with 57 hours TT.
Nothing wrong with getting your multi rating prior to your instrument, but I think getting the instrument first is better, and will be more usefull. The multi rating is not particularly difficult to get, and getting it does not necessarily improve your overall flying skills anywhere close to what an instrument rating provides. Also, insurance companies might consider it odd that you would have the multi rating without an instrument ticket.
Good luck and have fun. Let us know what the FBO's you visit have to say about the requirements.
You have gotten some good advice here regarding the issues of a low time PPL in a multi. I got my PPL in 1969, instrument in 1977 and multi in 1981. It was marginal in 1981 to be allowed to fly the twin after getting your multi rating because of insurance issues. I think they required 500 hours total time and the rating from the same flight school (FBO) that rented out the aricraft. Over the years, I kept enough multi time to just stay ahead of the increasing insurance requirements to allow me to rent.
We bought our Duchess this past year (first multi engine we have owned, but not first aircraft). The first year insurance was pretty high given I had no time in "make and model", even though I had 900 TT and over 100 multi. They did require 5 hours make and model (dual) before solo or passengers.
During the last year I got my commercial SEL (while the Duchess was spending time in the shop getting things fixed and upgraded) and also did my commercial MEL in the Duchess. My insurance dropped 30% going into year two. That is with the additional ratings and 150 hours make and model now. I'm told that another benchmark is 250 hours make and model....will find out next year perhaps.
I would be surprised if anyone can provide a twin for you at your experience level at a rate that will beat the airlines. Anything can be insured, but you should not assume that the act of "renting" an aircraft covers insurance issues. As you progress to more advanced aircraft, you will have those discussions with any FBO you use.
Also, you said you need a twin to fly family and baggage. There are many singles that will easily carry as much or more than our Duchess (a typical 4 seat twin), and for far less money. If you need six seats and baggage, you might think in terms of a Cherokee 6, however, I bet that you might not even meet the minimum time required to rent one of those with 57 hours TT.
Nothing wrong with getting your multi rating prior to your instrument, but I think getting the instrument first is better, and will be more usefull. The multi rating is not particularly difficult to get, and getting it does not necessarily improve your overall flying skills anywhere close to what an instrument rating provides. Also, insurance companies might consider it odd that you would have the multi rating without an instrument ticket.
Good luck and have fun. Let us know what the FBO's you visit have to say about the requirements.
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...
More good advice from Dan.
___________
"...It was marginal in 1981 to be allowed to fly the twin after getting your multi rating because of insurance issues..."
That's when I started flying my Bonanza and went through the ringer getting insured on her. I had 100 hours in a 172 at that time, and had to get 50 hours dual in order to carry passengers.
_________
"...My insurance dropped 30% going into year two. That is with the additional ratings and 150 hours make and model now. I'm told that another benchmark is 250 hours make and model....will find out next year perhaps..."
I've been told the same thing.
___________
"Nothing wrong with getting your multi rating prior to your instrument, but I think getting the instrument first is better, and will be more usefull. The multi rating is not particularly difficult to get, and getting it does not necessarily improve your overall flying skills anywhere close to what an instrument rating provides...."
True that.
I only needed 5 hours instruction, with two different instructors in two different airplanes before I took my multi checkride.
The instrument took alot longer (still took 2 instructors).
More good advice from Dan.
___________
"...It was marginal in 1981 to be allowed to fly the twin after getting your multi rating because of insurance issues..."
That's when I started flying my Bonanza and went through the ringer getting insured on her. I had 100 hours in a 172 at that time, and had to get 50 hours dual in order to carry passengers.
_________
"...My insurance dropped 30% going into year two. That is with the additional ratings and 150 hours make and model now. I'm told that another benchmark is 250 hours make and model....will find out next year perhaps..."
I've been told the same thing.
___________
"Nothing wrong with getting your multi rating prior to your instrument, but I think getting the instrument first is better, and will be more usefull. The multi rating is not particularly difficult to get, and getting it does not necessarily improve your overall flying skills anywhere close to what an instrument rating provides...."
True that.
I only needed 5 hours instruction, with two different instructors in two different airplanes before I took my multi checkride.
The instrument took alot longer (still took 2 instructors).
Slice121
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Get your instrument in a twin... www.prairieairservice.com
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