Preferred Degree?

[stmi0203]

Need a little imput on whether or not an aviation degree is preferred. I attended a four year institution for two years before finances caught up with me and I had to attend community college where I've been the past two years. I plan to return in the fall and transfer my courses and complete my degree. Since I began at community college I've been working in the parks and recreation field as well as taking classes for parks and rec, enough that I could make that my major when I return to the four year school. So, at the end of next year I'll have up through my CFI-I completed with a degree in aviation, or with a degree in parks and rec. I know marketability in a field outside of aviation will help me in the event I lose my medical or something that causes me to leave aviation. I do not know if lacking an aviation degree will make me less marketable as I seek employment as a pilot. Any advice or observations from people who've been there are greatly appreciated.

Blue Skies,
Mike

 

[pilotyip]

You only need a degee for about 3-4 airlines, and even those airlines do not care what your degree is in or where you got it. If you want to fly airplanes get TP PIC, it makes you much marketable than a college degree.

 

[Bandit60]

As a matter of fact a degree in something other than aviation might be a good idea. This will give you an edge when you get furloughed in finding a job outside aviation.

 

[2000flyer]

Mike,

Obviously, a degree in the field in which you work puts more of a value on you. However, many times its the fact that you've finished your degree, regardless of field of study. Mainly, because it shows you have the ability and motivation to work hard and get a degree, are willing to work at it to completion. It also shows dedication to working on a task to the end.

Aviation is one of those fields where there aren't specific "requirements" to a degree held. If you were applying for a financial position, a BS in History isn't going to win you many points. However, if you look at pilot's, our degree fields are as varied as those offered at colleges. I know pilot's who have IT, MBA's and medical degrees.

Regards,
2000Flyer

 

[bobbysamd]

Moratorium over. Here we go again

You only need a degee for about 3-4 airlines, and even those airlines do not care what your degree is in or where you got it. If you want to fly airplanes get TP PIC, it makes you much marketable than a college degree.

There you go again, Yip. How many companies is it, now, that do not require the degree? That isn't the point. Getting a four-year college degree from an accredited college will open all doors and qualify you for every company. You will not be limited to those who do not require the degree. Moreover, it is no secret that applicants who have a degree or even some college still have an advantage at companies which do not require a degree. Finally, to get the "TJ PIC" you still need every advantage possible and/or at least those credentials which maintain a level playing field with your competition and enable you to gain employment with companies that provide that time. Not having the degree artificially disadvantages you because your competition will have it. I say "artificially" because nearly anyone can go to college or distance learning, with all the less-expensive state schools, easy admissions and loans available anymore.

Having written my last statement, to answer the original poster's question, I, personally, like an aviation degree because of the education it provides to pilots. An aviation degree is a four-year degree which will still open doors that would otherwise slam shut absent a degree. However, the only thing that matters is having a four-year degree, in something, from an accredited college. And, the degree need not be from some fancy Ivy League school, etc., unless you are so inclined. A degree from your local state college, etc. will suffice nicely.

Be smart. Don't be beaten by the competition. Get your degree. Get it out of the way and then worry about "TJ PIC."

 

[pilotyip]

No degree thing

Good to hear from you Bobby, how is it going/

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Pick something other than aviation as your degree. Find something that you like doing and get a degree in that. Chances are that you will need it to keep your family going somewhere down the road.

I am a second generation airline pilot, between me and my Father we have seen close to 55 years of professional flying, and NEVER have we seen it this bad. Not only are there very few jobs out there, most of the ones that are out there do not pay enough to warrent the time and effort required to become a pilot. If I were doing it again, I have my doubts if I would choose aviation as a career. I love to fly, and always have. But right now I am Captain on a Corp jet and every month it is a struggle to pay the bills. And we are not taling about a big house and fancy cars. A decent house with two aging vehicles in the yard. Back in the good times when I was with a major, I had a play toy or two, but they have mostly been sold over the last three years. With the remaining one (a dirt bike) probably going on the block before long. And that will be to ensure that my kid can continue to go to preschool.

Of the 40 or so guys that I came through the ranks with at freight companies, regionals and the majors that I keep in touch with, maybe 5 have what could be considered a good career in aviation. For the most part they are all in the same position as me, Mortgage and families, working their full time jobs and picking up contract stuff wherever they can.

If you look at the numbers, most city bus drivers and subway operators make more money that 80% or so of the professional pilots out there now when you compare years of service and what it took to get there. Of my neighbors in my middle class neighborhood, they all think I make a fortune, when the truth is most of them make equal or more than i do with half the requirements. As a matter of fact, 3 of my close buds from high school, none of which ever attended college, ALL make better W-2's than I do after 12 years as a pro pilot. Their professions? Welder, Window and door installer, and a drink truck driver.


Sorry about the rant, just got done trying to cover the bills for the month and a little on edge right now. Bottom line, expect to have an unstable aviation career with several furloughs when you are picking your major. If you get lucky and find the rare good career aviation job....then your major can be something that you can say you did, If you have the normal aviation career, then your major outside of aviation will be the best thing you ever did.

One other thing to think about, we had 10 guys in our crashpad while at the majors. All were furloughed, and of the 10, four have left aviation all together for a much better paying career in their field that they majored in. All four had at least 10 years as a pro pilot and 5000 hours TT with a couple thousand turbine PIC time, with 121 PIC experience. None had ever been employed doing what they majored in, yet they all make at least a third again what they could in aviation even with their experience.

I am seriously considering leaving for a higher paying job outside of aviation. I do not want to, but I have my family to think about. As it stands right now, the only way my 4 year old will ever see college is if he gets a full ride for grades or athletic ability. Considering that I manage and fly a 6 million doller jet, that is not saying much about the profession right now!!

End of rant!!! Whew, I feel better

 

[English]

You only need a degee for about 3-4 airlines, and even those airlines do not care what your degree is in or where you got it. If you want to fly airplanes get TP PIC, it makes you much marketable than a college degree.

The dead horse has been resurrected AGAIN...

OK, which 3-4 airlines require the degree?

At my airline, a college education (at least 60 units) is REQUIRED. Lots of guys hired this year have no turbine PIC time whatsoever. So, for at least this airline, your theory is blown out of the water.

 

[Vik]

Get a non-aviation degree. The aviation degree is a waste of your time because if you love aviation, you'll learn that stuff anyway .. and the aviation degree is worth only one thing and the odds of you being caught in a field, with your pants down and no toilet paper and no leaves near by is remote.

(Dribble and UNDies grads can save the reply. I've heard it all.)

 

[b757driver]

As someone with a bit of experience on both sides of the pond as far as hiring and airlines go, I would say a degree is useful. However, it is not the be all and end all.

Here in the US, there is much more weighting to getting a degree before an airline will even look at you. In other countries, they don't care as much - nice to have, but other factors are more important. As an aside, it only takes 3 YEARS to get a first degree in Europe, not 4; so you guys have it easy!

I would agree, that in today's world a degree OTHER than aviation would be a smart move. This will give you more options when you get furloughed or laid off. Finally, I know plenty of successful pilots with degrees in chemistry, history and art. Does not seem to have harmed them.

 

[pilotyip]

For English: Actaully I can only think of two airlines hiring right now that require degrees FedEx and UPS. So I thought I would round up on the high side. The rest of the airlines hiring right now to include SWA, AWA, JB, Air Tran, and all the regionals do not let a piece of paper stand in the way of hiring the right guy. Guys without TJ PIC get hired all the time, but your chances of getting more interviews goes up with TJ PIC. It is the good standard of the hiring world excpet forthe above named airlines.

 

[Goose Egg]

The rest of the airlines hiring right now to include SWA, AWA, JB, Air Tran, and all the regionals do not let a piece of paper stand in the way of hiring the right guy.

But what percentage of those being hired have degrees? Who gets hired between two people who have the same amount of TJ PIC, the one with the degree or the one without?

You of all people should know that there is a substantial difference between the terms qualified and competetive.

-Goose

 

[Brett Hull]

Jeebus H Christ

4600+ total, 2000 Jet, 1000 Turbine PIC, NO COLLEGE DEGREE...yet (21 hours to go) and I CAN NOT, I repeat, CAN NOT get my resume sniffed by anyone worth working for. Key words right back there <------WORTH WORKING FOR. I know, I've been trying for a couple of years; and I have a good looking resume (Thanks Kathy!). Apparantly the Corporate department I've been hounding for the last 3+ years DOES let a piece of paper get in the way of hiring the right person (that would be me) because they just bought their 3rd airplane and hired 2 or 3 new guys.

Now if your goal in life is to live 15 minutes from YIP or some other craphole and live with a pager permanently attached to your hip, by all means, skip the college degree. If actually having a life is more your cup of tea, then get your degree in something. Anything. PERIOD!

 

[Goose Egg]

Oh, and I think I should add that I have a rare full-time CFI job with benefits (paid vacation/sick, health, dental, life... heck, I even have flexible spending!) and one of the requirements for this job was that I have a 4 year degree.

-Goose

 

[pilotyip]

Most pilots have degrees

If 95% of the pilots applying for jobs have degrees, and 5% of the pilots applying do not have degrees. Therefore most pilots hired will have degrees, but as stated before it has nothing to do with flying an airplane. 33% of the pilots hired at the regionals did not have degrees. Are we going to start a new thread on the I am better than you because I have a degree stuff again? Remember I swore off this last time until 10-27-04

 

[350DRIVER]

If 95% of the pilots applying for jobs have degrees, and 5% of the pilots applying do not have degrees. Therefore most pilots hired will have degrees, but as stated before it has nothing to do with flying an airplane. 33% of the pilots hired at the regionals did not have degrees. Are we going to start a new thread on the I am better than you because I have a degree stuff again? Remember I swore off this last time until 10-27-04

yip, you are correct, that piece of paper will not make one a better pilot.. Many people have gotten hired without the degree and many more will continue to get hired in the future without one. This issue is nothing more than one opinion versus another person's opinion.

3 5 0

 

[bobbysamd]

Yessir, it's certainly the "TJ PIC" and not the degree that gets you the job . . .

4600+ total, 2000 Jet, 1000 Turbine PIC, NO COLLEGE DEGREE...yet (21 hours to go) and I CAN NOT, I repeat, CAN NOT get my resume sniffed by anyone worth working for. Key words right back there <------WORTH WORKING FOR. I know, I've been trying for a couple of years . . . . Apparantly the Corporate department I've been hounding for the last 3+ years DOES let a piece of paper get in the way of hiring the right person . . . .

Proof positive that, indeed, it's turbine time and not the degree that gets you the job.

Your Honor, I rest my case.

Good luck, Brett, with getting the job you want.

 

[bobbysamd]

Are we going to start a new thread on the I am better than you because I have a degree stuff again? Remember I swore off this last time until 10-27-04

You opened the door, Yip, when you responded, above, that it is "TJ PIC" and not the degree that gets you hired.

Moreover, no one is saying that one person is better than the other because one has a degree and the other does not. As always, this debate turns on the issue of whether a four-year degree is an absolute for having a successful aviation career, with "success" being defined as an airline job.

 

[350DRIVER]

Proof positive that, indeed, that turbine time and not the degree gets you the job.

Your Honor, I rest my case.

Good luck, Brett, with getting the job you want.

I can recall more than a few (actually many) with very similar credentials as Brett's who did indeed get hired without the college degree. This is one isolated case and does not represent every aspect of the industry. The degree is a good thing to have but does not guarantee success nor does it make one a better pilot or assure that they will be "hired" at company X. Yip is merely sharing his opinions and thoughts and they should be taken at face value.

3 5 0

 

[Resume Writer]

I think the posters original question was whether it made a difference as to "what" degree he gets, not whether he is going to get one or not.

To answer that question, I have had clients with degrees from liberal arts to geology and they have gotten hired. They really do not care what your degree is in; just that you have the piece of paper. I think the degree obtained should be one that you can fall back on in the case of a furlough.

Do people get hired without a degree? Sure they do. However, when there are so many people furloughed right now, it is one more thing that can be held against you if they put it as a requirement to weed out candidates.

As for the corporate world, I can only take a stab at what is keeping Brett from getting hired without the degree. Perhaps the corporate operators want someone with a degree so they can interface with the executives they transport. Like I said, only a stab at it, I have no studies or evidence to back that up.

Kathy

 

[bobbysamd]

Controllable credentials and industry representations

I can recall more than a few (actually many) with very similar credentials as Brett's who did indeed get hired without the college degree. This is one isolated case and does not represent every aspect of the industry.

I agree, though I would submit that there are untold numbers of cases identical to Brett's.

The degree is a good thing to have but does not guarantee success nor does it make one a better pilot or assure that they will be "hired" at company X.

Once more, I stand by my position. Of course, the degree cannot guarantee success, primarily because in life there are few guarantees. But, as has been demonstrated abundantly here and elsewhere, the degree greatly improves the odds of being hired.

Pilots need to acquire any credential that will maintain a level playing field. Fate and luck control many of the credentials we can offer, but a college degree is one credential over which we have total control. Even with horrendous grades and/or SATs, anyone can go to college and graduate, even if it takes starting at an open-admissions community college or as a non-traditional applicant and transferring credits.

Yip is merely sharing his opinions and thoughts and they should be taken at face value.

To some people, they are more than opinions. Yip hires pilots at his company and uses his position of authority as a bully pulpit to push his anti-degree agenda. Therefore, to some people who might not know otherwise, he stands for the industry's hiring standpoint, and, to them, his opinions, while misleading, are authoritative.

Though Yip might de-emphasize the degree at his company, I, again, submit that his company policy is in no way indicative or representative of the industry. That single point should be kept in mind when considering his opinions about a college degree's value in getting hired.

Finally, Yip deserves congratulations and respect for his enlightened hiring policy of looking at the person and not necessarily at his/her paper quals. Sadly, his policy is old-school. These days, HR looks for reasons not to hire someone instead of reasons to hire him/her.

 

[bobbysamd]

Oh, and I think I should add that I have a rare full-time CFI job with benefits (paid vacation/sick, health, dental, life... heck, I even have flexible spending!) and one of the requirements for this job was that I have a 4 year degree.

My first, and best, full-time pilot job was as a flight instructor at ERAU. I had all my ratings through MEI and my degree (for many years) when I applied to Riddle. I do not recall if a degree was a requirement, but I'd bet it was and I'm sure it got me through the door.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

If 95% of the pilots applying for jobs have degrees, and 5% of the pilots applying do not have degrees. Therefore most pilots hired will have degrees,

Ahh, the chicken and the egg argument again. If 95% of the pilots have two nipples, and 5% don't then is it required to have two nipples to get hired? Nipples have nothing to do with flying, right Fokker?
Same old YIP, same old bad advice. Well, bad advice unless you are interviewing in YIP. Don't forget the rotary time!

 

[pilotyip]

Corporate World

I agree that in the corporate world a degree probably is a requirement. For airline flying the degree is not that important if you want to fly. I have nothing against a college degree, but to go college and get a degree strictly for the purpose of checking a box on a pilot application, in my opinion is a waste of time and money. Time and money that could be better spent on flight time and ratings to get your first flying job when you are 19-20 years old. I have seen too many succeed following this path.

 

[pilotyip]

Hard to find pilots without a degree

It is really hard to find pilots without a degree almost everyone has one? Like my next class 3 BS/BA's and one MBA. But we ask for no transcripts, GPA's or even what was your major during the interview process, because it has nothing to do with flying an airplane or who you are as a person. It also carries no correlation to success in completing an airline-training program. I ask HR to take the education box off of the employment application, but she said they have to use a standard form company wide.

 

[bobbysamd]

[T]o go college and get a degree strictly for the purpose of checking a box on a pilot application, in my opinion is a waste of time and money. Time and money that could be better spent on flight time and ratings to get your first flying job when you are 19-20 years old. I have seen too many succeed following this path.

Such as your 20-year-old "success story" who lucked into the Metro job before you hired him. I submit that is a highly isolated case. Most people have to work at it for years and scratch for that kind of work.

It is not a waste of time and money if a degree will improve your chances of being hired. Giving such advice, Yip, is, in the least, irresponsible, especially when it comes from someone in your position.

It's the same-old, same-old from Yip. After you earn your ratings, what's next? You might get an instructing job and build some hours, or drag around banners, etc. But, if not having the degree stops you from getting a job(s), where do you stand?? Perhaps "TJ PIC" might get you the job, but it takes credentials to get the job that leads to the "TJ PIC."

You continue to mislead, Yip, and give bad advice about putting-off or outright foregoing a college degree. There are exceptions to every rule, with the key word being "exception." Go with the rule, not the exception. Get the degree, get it now and get it out of the way, and then start flying, or go to an aviation college and get your ratings and your degree.

 

[pilotyip]

Up bright and early I see Bobby

Wow! Quick response, it is like before 5 in the morning Mountain time, really up bright and early.