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Precision FAF

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m4j2t

Active member
Joined
Aug 12, 2005
Posts
37
where does is state specifically that the final approach fix is reached while intercepting the glideslope at or below the published altitude?

with regaurds to 121 operations can you be in the final approach segment above the published intercept altitude?

looking for a refernce--thanks
 
IAP consists of IAF, Initial Approach Fix, the IF (middle part) Intermediate Fix, and the last part, the FAF, Final Approach Fix

the PUBLISHED FAF is reached when you are physically at or past the fix, defined in DME, cross radials, etc etc. It is not dependent on altitude (the "reaching" of the FAF as your post discusses). You could be high on the approach, but be inside the FAF. You could also be low on altitude, and be inside the FAF

Say WOOLE is the FAF, and on a normal approach, is the GS intercept point. Lets say for whatever reason you have NOT intercepted the GS and are high/low and Tower asks, are you inside WOOLE yet?

what is the answer? its either yes or no, period. (for 2 seconds you will be AT WOOLE but you see my point)

"Gear down point" is commonly taught to occur at the FAF, but if you intercept the GS from a "high intercept" (FYI: GS and/or localizor is only guaranteed 18 or was it 22 miles....) you can put gear down if you want. He11, you can put it down whereever you want, just put it down.
 
To expand on what satpak said:
"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The intersection of the published intercept altitude with the glideslope/path, designated on approach charts by the lightning bolt symbol, is the precision FAF, however, when ATC directs a lower altitude, the resultant lower intercept position is then the FAF."

Looking at this chart:
http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0511/00026I27L.PDF

If ATC says "maintain 4000 until established, cleared for the approach," then ANVAL becomes your FAF.
If they tell you to maintain 2800 'till established, then Depot is the FAF.

In the first example, if you have a full scale glideslope deflection when passing ANVAL, ANVAL is still your FAF.
[/FONT]
 
From the pilot controller glossary...

"FINAL APPROACH FIX- The fix from which the final approach (IFR) to an airport is executed and which identifies the beginning of the final approach segment. It is designated on Government charts by the Maltese Cross symbol for nonprecision approaches and the lightning bolt symbol for precision approaches; or when ATC directs a lower-than- published glideslope/path intercept altitude, it is the resultant actual point of the glideslope/path intercept."

It is not possible to be on the final approach segment of an instrument approach above the published intercept altitude by definition.
 
A good place to find the information is the U.S. Standard for Terminal Instrument Procedures FAA Order 8260.3B (TERPS). It's certainly more likely to be accurate than the many "experts" on flightinfo that have just enough knowledge to sound like they know what they're talking about :rolleyes:
I tried to find a link to an online version but didn't have any luck...you may have to break down and buy a paper copy from the GPO if you really want to know. It's very boring technical reading...but you can only spend so many hours a day in the crashpad searching for porn on the internet.

satpak77...
IAP consists of IAF, Initial Approach Fix, the IF (middle part) Intermediate Fix, and the last part, the FAF, Final Approach Fix

atldc9...
It is not possible to be on the final approach segment of an instrument approach above the published intercept altitude by definition.

sometimes... There are plenty of approaches that don't have IAF's or Initial segments (radar required); plenty that don't have intermediate fixes, and plenty more with no FAF (NDB or VOR on the field). The majority (not all) of intermediate segment altitudes are minimums... not mandatory.
 
Check out atldc9's post. He cited a reference...I really don't see why there should be a debate.
 
The reference is correct

Doc Holiday said:
Check out atldc9's post. He cited a reference...I really don't see why there should be a debate.

It's some of the stuff other people have tried to say that's debatable.
 
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sometimes... There are plenty of approaches that don't have IAF's or Initial segments (radar required); plenty that don't have intermediate fixes, and plenty more with no FAF (NDB or VOR on the field). The majority (not all) of intermediate segment altitudes are minimums... not mandatory.


My answer was the standard FAA IFR approach definition, based on the AIM and the 8083.15 handbook. In part:


AIM - 5-4-6. Approach Clearance
a. An aircraft which has been cleared to a holding fix and subsequently "cleared . . . approach" has not received new routing. Even though clearance for the approach may have been issued prior to the aircraft reaching the holding fix, ATC would expect the pilot to proceed via the holding fix (his/her last assigned route), and the feeder route associated with that fix (if a feeder route is published on the approach chart) to
the initial approach fix (IAF) to commence the approach.

FAA Controller Handbook - 4-8-1. APPROACH CLEARANCE
a. Clear aircraft for "standard" or "special" instrument approach procedures only. To require an aircraft to execute a particular instrument approach procedure, specify in the approach clearance the name of the approach as published on the approach chart. Where more than one procedure is published on a single chart and a specific procedure is to be flown, amend the approach clearance to specify execution of the specific approach to be flown. If only one instrument approach of a particular type is published, the approach needs not be identified by the runway reference. An aircraft conducting an ILS/MLS approach when the glideslope/glidepath is reported out of service shall be advised at the time an approach clearance is issued. Standard Instrument Approach Procedures shall commence at an Initial Approach Fix or an Intermediate Approach Fix if there is not an Initial Approach Fix. Where adequate radar coverage exists, radar facilities may vector aircraft to the final approach course in accordance with para 5-9-1, Vectors to Final Approach Course.​


 
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satpak77 said:
My answer was the standard FAA IFR approach definition, based on the AIM and the 8083.15 handbook. In part:


AIM - 5-4-6. Approach Clearance
a. An aircraft which has been cleared to a holding fix and subsequently "cleared . . . approach" has not received new routing. Even though clearance for the approach may have been issued prior to the aircraft reaching the holding fix, ATC would expect the pilot to proceed via the holding fix (his/her last assigned route), and the feeder route associated with that fix (if a feeder route is published on the approach chart) to
the initial approach fix (IAF) to commence the approach.

FAA Controller Handbook - 4-8-1. APPROACH CLEARANCE
a. Clear aircraft for "standard" or "special" instrument approach procedures only. To require an aircraft to execute a particular instrument approach procedure, specify in the approach clearance the name of the approach as published on the approach chart. Where more than one procedure is published on a single chart and a specific procedure is to be flown, amend the approach clearance to specify execution of the specific approach to be flown. If only one instrument approach of a particular type is published, the approach needs not be identified by the runway reference. An aircraft conducting an ILS/MLS approach when the glideslope/glidepath is reported out of service shall be advised at the time an approach clearance is issued. Standard Instrument Approach Procedures shall commence at an Initial Approach Fix or an Intermediate Approach Fix if there is not an Initial Approach Fix. Where adequate radar coverage exists, radar facilities may vector aircraft to the final approach course in accordance with para 5-9-1, Vectors to Final Approach Course.​


Yeah, but neither of these things answers the original question. The original question asked for a published reference for the definition of the FAF on a precision approach.

You're all wrapped around the axle about segmets and whatnot when the correct answer is located in two places - The Pilot Controller Glossary in the AIM and the Jeppesen introduction section - BOTH under Final Approach Fix.

There! That's where you find (officially) that the final approach segment of a precision approach begins either ON GS at the lowest altitude published for GS intercept, or upon intercepting GS when GS intercept is at any lower altitude authorized by ATC.

That's it. That's all. There's nothing more to debate!
 

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