Precision FAF

[TheBaron]

Dumbledore has the correct definition...no debate
However...I wouldn't call the AIM or the intro section to the Jepp's the "official" source. They are only quoting the official (as in regulatory) source which is:
FAA Order 8260.3B
'nuff said

 

[Dumbledore]

However...I wouldn't call the AIM or the intro section to the Jepp's the "official" source. They are only quoting the official (as in regulatory) source which is:
FAA Order 8260.3B
'nuff said

Not quite. I'm sifting through my numerous PTSs and by golley if I'm not finding ANY reference whatsoever to FAAO 8260.3B. Hmmmm. I wonder what the official source for information on instrument procedures could be. I wouldn't be this thing they DO reference REAPEATEDLY called the AIM, would it???

As for the Jepp intro sxn, I agree that it is merely a recitation and actually far less of an "official" source but I would submit that its covereage is more internationally oriented for thiose who might need that. It covers a braoder spectrum of issues.

I know where the info comes from but that's not where pilots are expected to get it and actually, presupposing a lack of internet access, it's not REASONABLE to expect them to get it from 8260.3B. either.

Pilots are expectd to have a grasp of this information and the two easiest places to obtain it - reprint or not - is the AIM, and if you happen to have Jepps the intro sxn to those.

 

[satpak77]

Yeah, but neither of these things answers the original question. The original question asked for a published reference for the definition of the FAF on a precision approach.

You're all wrapped around the axle about segmets and whatnot when the correct answer is located in two places - The Pilot Controller Glossary in the AIM and the Jeppesen introduction section - BOTH under Final Approach Fix.

There! That's where you find (officially) that the final approach segment of a precision approach begins either ON GS at the lowest altitude published for GS intercept, or upon intercepting GS when GS intercept is at any lower altitude authorized by ATC.

That's it. That's all. There's nothing more to debate!

Dumble nobody is wrapped around the axle partner, I was expanding upon Barons comment about IAF's

 

[Dumbledore]

Okay, but...

Dumble nobody is wrapped around the axle partner, I was expanding upon Barons comment about IAF's

There seems to be an airing out of irrelevant information here. Sorry for snapping.

On a precision approach there really isn't a final approach fix - at least not technically. There is a point on the approach that is considered to be the end of the initial/intermediate approach segment and the beginning of the final approach segment. That point is determined by being on GS at the lowest altitude published for GS intercept for the approach. In some cases ATC may authorize a lower altitude for GS intercept - happens all the time at LAX. When this is the case the the interception of the GS at the lower authorized altitude is the point at which the final approach segment begins.

DME distances, cross radials, OMs, etc., have nothing to do with any of it on a purely precision approach. Those things are all there if the approach is being conducted as a non-precision apparoach (GS inop or GS transmitter OTS), or if the approach will terminate in a circling maneuver, thus necessitating abandonment of the electronic GS prior to reaching the MAP as defined for a precision approach - DA(H) and on GS. In such a case the non-precision MAP must be used because technically there is no way to determine the missed approach point once you leave the GS on an ILS. You need a place to start your clock.

None of this is intended to school you on the subject. If you know all this then you know it. There are others here who might not and all I'm trying to do is strip the non-essential stuff from the program.

 

[TheBaron]

Dumbledore...
You are correct in stating that the AIM is an accepted reference and any examiner would take what you have said as an excellent answer. My whole point in giving the reference is that you learn more when you put the effort into doing a little research versus just passively accepting the answers from chat board experts. As far as the TERPS not being in the PTS, you have to look a little closer. Pilots are expected to have a working knowledge of the FAR's (CFR 14).

Part 97 is titled "Standard Instument Approach Procedures", in part it says:

§ 97.20 General.

(a) This subpart prescribes standard instrument procedures and weather takeoff minimums based on the criteria contained in FAA Order 8260.3, U.S. Standard for Terminal Instrument Procedures (TERPs), and other related Orders in the 8260 series that also address instrument procedure design criteria.

(b) Standard instrument procedures and associated supporting data adopted by the FAA are documented on FAA Forms 8260–3, 8260–4, 8260–5. Weather takeoff minimums are documented on FAA Form 8260–15A. These forms are incorporated by reference. The Director of the Federal Register approved this incorporation by reference pursuant to 5 U.S.C. 552(a) and 1 CFR part 51. The standard instrument procedures and weather takeoff minimums are available for examination at the FAA's Rules Docket (AGC–200) and at the National Flight Data Center, 800 Independence Avenue, SW., Washington, DC 20590, or at the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA). For information on the availability of this material at NARA, call 202–741–6030, or go to http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/code_of_federal_regulations/ibr_locations.html.

(c) Standard instrument procedures and weather takeoff minimums are depicted on aeronautical charts published by the FAA National Aeronautical Charting Office. These charts are available for purchase from the FAA's National Aeronautical Charting Office, Distribution Division, 6303 Ivy Lane, Suite 400, Greenbelt, MD 20770.

[Doc. No. FAA–2004–19247, 70 FR 23004, May 3, 2005]


My other point is...information in the AIM wasn't just pulled out of someone's butt. Information on Terminal Instrument Procedures (IAP's, DP's, SID's, STARS) comes from the TERPS, and by it's inclusion in Part 97, it is the regulatory source for all US standard instrument approach procedures. ICAO used it as their reference when they developed their IAP's as well as PAN-OPS and JAR-OPS.

Just the way I was raised. If I wanted to know something, my parents handed me a book and said "look it up."

 

[bigD]

Check out atldc9's post. He cited a reference...I really don't see why there should be a debate.

You're new here, aren't you? This is FlightInfo. There is ALWAYS a debate!

 

[Dumbledore]

I understand Baron

Well the ways you and I were raised seem to have a lot in common. I too have looked a lot of this crap up.

But ya know what? I've been flying for 28 years and have over 18,000 hours on seven jet type ratings (no bravado intended - just facts) and never once, in the heat of ANY moment, have I EVER had to know any more than the fact that I had better have a decent weather report by the time I reach GS intercept altitude as published on the chart or as cleared lower by ATC. That bit of regulatory info hasn't changed in all the time I've been working at this business.

Please understand that I mean no one here any disrespect about this. I salute your insistance that knowing how to derive the answer is a good start. it means you can do so at any time. But this stuff belongs in a classroom. On the line what matters is practical application of the restrictions imposed by the FARs. Not whether you can tell me what part of Part 97 the whole business comes from.

But hey, maybe there's a place in someone's heart for it. The more I fly the more I am absolutely CERTAIN of what I don't know.

On a different note, tell your friend in the avatar that she's gonna need more support than that. She's about to burst at the seams! Or perhaps that was the point!