Practical purposes of comm maneuvers?

[gkrangers]

So...why do I need to learn how to do chandelles, eights on pylons, etc...?

I'm just curious what the "logic" behind them is.

Gonna start comm stuff soon.

Thanks.

 

[viper548]

I think it says in the PTS

 

[gkrangers]

I think it says in the PTS

Well I don't have one.....

 

[aroden]

I don't know but maybe you're taking off in a valley or in an area of other obstructions and need to do a 180 and gain as much altitude as possible - it must of been a useful maneuver...if it wasn't an important one, then the French wouldn't have stolen credit for it.

And Lazy Eights are just for you to demonstrate how adept you are an handling the plane. Crop Dusters look like they are doing something like a Lazy Eight when they climb out, do a 180 and then dive back down at the field.

Steep turns around a point - they are useful if you are spying on your brother-in-law to try to find out if he is cheating on your sister....the same goes for slow flying.

I don't know about eights on pylons though - it is a groovy maneuver though.

 

[Pilot Doc]

So...why do I need to learn how to do chandelles, eights on pylons, etc...?

I'm unaware of any widely applicable practical purpose. For me, I finally learned how to use the rudder with those maneuvers.

 

[Flechas]

It's all about coordination. You are always changing something.

 

[aroden]

I'm unaware of any widely applicable practical purpose. For me, I finally learned how to use the rudder with those maneuvers.

You know that's probably a BIG reason for it - before working on my commercial, about the only time I used the pedals is when taxiing. After working on the commercial maneuvers, I was just allot more comfortable with the airplane - so apparently, they are useful.

 

[gkrangers]

It's all about coordination. You are always changing something.

I am *far* too lazy to fly coordinated.

 

[flyer172r]

They needed something to put on the commercial checkride, and that's what they came up with. I believe the chandelle was originally intended as an escape maneuver if you find yourself in a boxed canyon. Of course, if you found yourself in that situation without a very good reason, something went wrong and maybe you shouldn't have a comercial certificate at all. (someone's gonna yell at me for saying that, I can see it now).

I guess the real purpose of learning the maneuver is coordination and keeping you thinking ahead of the airplane.

 

[Dumbluck]

besides being a box canyon escape manuever, another purpose is to watch a students scan inside to outside and not fixate on either aspect.

 

[VVJM265]

Well I don't have one.....(PTS)

Here are all of them:

http://www.faa.gov/education_research/testing/airmen/test_standards/pilot/

 

[BoilerUP]

"...to exercise mastery of the airplane as a commercial pilot." Or such was the crap I was told.

That being said, they aren't difficult to do, and nobody should bust a ride because of them. You can have alot of fun doing chandelles or "extremely lazy 8s" if you get a bit spirited with the bank and rate of roll.

 

[RichardRambone]

The only explanation Ive ever got was to prove your ability to control the plane in those offbeat manuevers. Who cares.

 

[avbug]

With the exception of eights, I've regularly used most of the maneuvers as part of my paid flying for many years...they have had extensive practical applications.

For you as the budding commercial pilot, however, they are exercises and demonstrations of basic flying skills. The Chandelle, for example, isn't a maneuver designed to teach you to escape a box canyon. If you fly into a box canyon without an out, you probably deserve to die. And there are far more important tactics to get out than a chandelle.

It's a maneuver that teaches you to coordinate airspeed with changing pitch and bank angles, nothing more. It's often taught as horsing the nose up and running out of airspeed when you've turned a hundred eighty degrees, but that's not it at all. Rolling into the turn smoothly and accurately such that you continuously increase your bank for half of the maneuver, and continuously decrease it for the other half requires coordination. More so considering the changing control forces, and decreasing airspeed. Properly done, your pitch increases continuously from the start of the maneuver until half way through, and then holds constant. It must achieve a pitch attitude that allows for the airspeed to bleed to minimum controllable at the same tiem you arrive at the conclusion of the maneuver, just as the wings roll level, just as you reach one hundred eighty degrees from the start.

Likewise a Lazy eight has numerous applications, but more importantly, teaches you and requires you to demonstrate coordination. It's a simple maneuver, but a good training maneuver, and I've been required to demonstrate it on checkrides ranging from small single engine airplanes to large four engine airplanes. Often in the field I use a combination of a lazy eight, turns on or about points, and a chandelle in typical maneuvering close to the surface, all with eyes outside the cockpit. Having an understanding and feel of the airplane is important, and the classroom maneuvers and concepts find a very real application in day to day flying for some jobs.

Your requirement to learn and demonstrate them isn't designed to prepare you for those jobs, however...it's intrinsic to your basic flight training and your bag of elementary skills.

Really training out to include basic aerobatics too, but sadly it does not.

 

[nosehair]

before working on my commercial, about the only time I used the pedals is when taxiing.

...there is the precise and only reason for these maneuvers. Both the chandelle and lazy 8 require good coordination - excellent control of constantly changing rudder, elevator, and aileron pressures to fly the airplane in a pre-ordained manner - "to have mastery over the airplane".


​

 

[Horizon]

I believe the chandelle was originally intended as an escape maneuver if you find yourself in a boxed canyon.

For the boxed canyon, the ultimate escape maneuver is the hammer-head stall...

 

[Dumbluck]

I perfer a split-S or a Immelman, I forget which goes up?

 

[nosehair]

For the boxed canyon, the ultimate escape maneuver is the hammer-head stall...

...and for instrument let-downs, the spin
​

 

[pilotmiketx]

You know that's probably a BIG reason for it - before working on my commercial, about the only time I used the pedals is when taxiing.

You had a crappy instructor.

And GKrangers, if you don't have a PTS, you're starting off on the wrong foot. That should be the first thing you read before whatever stupid Jeppesen/ASA/King maneuvers manuals your instructor makes you use.

And the Chandelle was originally used in WWI to escape enemy ground fire.

As far as box canyons go, I prefer the 1/2 turn spin. Certainly easier than an immelman or hammerhead.

 

[BLing]

The commercial maneuvers help to perfect your flying skills. Yes, I admit that they are stupid, but they really do make you gain a better feel for the airplane.

 

[Exskydiverdrivr]

Let me add a bit to this. As an airline pilot (if this is your goal) you want to be smooth on the controls to the extreme. Consider this - sloppy rudder control in a c152 is barely noticed. Fly an aircraft 30 to 75 ft long and passengers in the last row really feel it! Paying customers be it an airline, or charter expect perfection. As crazy as these maneuvers sound now, being proficient in doing them is gonna pay off - trust me. Hope that adds another explanation.

 

[Lead Sled]

As far as box canyons go, I prefer the 1/2 turn spin. Certainly easier than an immelman or hammerhead.

I prefer overflight at FL390 or above.

'Sled

 

[sopdan]

Chandelle: The objective of this maneuver is to develop the pilot's coordination, orientation, planning, and feel for maximum performance flight, and to develop positive control techniques at varying airspeeds and attitudes.

Lazy Eight: The objective of the lazy eight is to develop the pilot's feel for varying control forces, and the ability to plan and remain oriented while maneuvering the airplane with positive, accurate control. It requires constantly changing control pressures necessitated by changing combinations of climbing and descending turns at varying airspeeds. This is a maneuver often used to develop and demonstrate the pilot's mastery of the airplane in maximum performance flight situations.

Taken from FAA-H-8083-3 (Airplane Flying Handbook, since you probably don't have one)

 

[cshelton]

There mainly to see how smooth and accurate you can fly the aircraft. Also to see how well you can keep the plane coordinated.

 

[gkrangers]

Chandelle: The objective of this maneuver is to develop the pilot's coordination, orientation, planning, and feel for maximum performance flight, and to develop positive control techniques at varying airspeeds and attitudes.

Lazy Eight: The objective of the lazy eight is to develop the pilot's feel for varying control forces, and the ability to plan and remain oriented while maneuvering the airplane with positive, accurate control. It requires constantly changing control pressures necessitated by changing combinations of climbing and descending turns at varying airspeeds. This is a maneuver often used to develop and demonstrate the pilot's mastery of the airplane in maximum performance flight situations.

Taken from FAA-H-8083-3 (Airplane Flying Handbook, since you probably don't have one)

I've got one.

 

[sopdan]

I've got one.

Then read it. Believe it or not, there's actually some good info in it. Like, oh I dunno... something like the purpose of different types of maneuvers.

 

[minitour]

Then read it. Believe it or not, there's actually some good info in it. Like, oh I dunno... something like the purpose of different types of maneuvers.

So what is a "maximum performance flight situation" that I might use a Lazy eight in?

I can see in the statement you quoted why they're in the PTS...but is that the only practical purpose? To pass the "practical" test? If so, that's pretty weak.

The Airman instructors always told me, however, that the purpose of the maneuvers was to pass the checkride...take that for what its worth though.

-mini

 

[groundpointsix]

Everyone has forgotten the most important reason for doing the commercial manuevers: Giving your instructor the chance to work for a couple hours and make some money so he can afford to buy a tank of gas and a jar of peanut butter.

 

[minitour]

Everyone has forgotten the most important reason for doing the commercial manuevers: Giving your instructor the chance to work for a couple hours and make some money so he can afford to buy a tank of gas and a jar of peanut butter.

DOH! I knew I missed a few questions in the oral....darn it...

-mini

 

[groundpointsix]

DOH! I knew I missed a few questions in the oral....darn it...

-mini

Yeah, this is one of those things that only comes with experience. Now where did I put my peanut butter?