Potomac Air & Jets for Jobs

[Vinman]

Flybywire,

I and everybody else out here doesn't want to see the number you put up here (1073), as does nobody else who sits in a cockpit anywhere. Here is what the objections are though.

#1 There is no flow through agreement to mainline. Simply stated, why should there in essence be a flowback agreement?

#2 If you do get jobs at any Express carrier (whether WO or Contract) that get jets, why do you;

a. Get CA pay regardless of seat; &
b. Don't have to surrender seniority and recall rights at your
other job? (ie. I just started at a company where I was
required to sign a letter giving up seniority at any
previous job and it was then sent by my new employer to
my old employer. This should apply to mainliners as
well.)

#3 When (hopefully not if) you get recalled, will there be anything that will require you to fulfill a certain length of stay at the Express carrier since they just had to pay for you to be trained in essentially their airplane (WO and Contract carriers have separate accounting books to keep track of from mainline).

#4 Why don't you get the jets at Mainline? Why do they have to go to Express carriers? If they are really flying your routes (ie routes that mainline had previously flown, but due to circumstances, such as 9/11, loads have not been high enough for an A320), what is stopping them from being started at USAirways?

#5 Passengers are wanting RJ's period. We all know how ignorant paxs can be, but they think because it is a jet, it is safer. The obvious benefit is that it is quieter as well. There are markets that still need turboprop service, simply because jets can't operate into or wouldn't be economical enough to operate into certain cities. Passengers are increasingly driving to where they can get jet service though. With the proliferation of carriers flying out of the cheaper, out of the way airports, passengers have more options today than they did 5 years ago. They are now choosing the jet!

If we, as a group (mainline and express), don't play some pretty quick catch-up, we may all be out of a job. As much as you are trying to save your job, we are only trying to save our contract integrity. I can't walk over to USAirways and say that I am part of you and so I will dictate what you do because you have a contract. We only ask the same.

 

[JetProp]

>Except this time it isn't "taking" anything from anybody.
POT has a history of "taking" from the WO's. We (PDT) had payroll problems, upgrade slowed down, and many were bumped down in domicile as a result of POT. ALG's acceptance of 100's was delayed because of POT.

>Potomac Air will be a completely stand alone self sufficient airline.
It wasn't before. POT siphoned off PDT assets and personnel at the expense of existing WO personnel.

>The pilots will be 100% staffed with furloughed US Airways pilots.
Why are you willing to accept a "B" scale? What other airline is starting a special WO for furloughed pilots? CAL, DAL, UAL, AA, TWAA, and NWA sure as heck aren't staring a special airline within an airline for furloughees.

> Furthermore, US Airways has agreed to automatically acknowledge that the Potomac pilots are represented by ALPA.
They are not a non union carrier this time.
That's to help get around the WO's lawsuit and CBA. How can ALPA say Freedom Air is an Alter Ego, but whole-heartedly endorse POT?

>This is not an Alter-Ego airline or any other BS.
Yes it is. It's total BS.

>The other wholly owned pilots have been screaming that the rj's should go to the wholly owned carriers.
Rightfully so. The RJ's should have gone to the Wo's from day one.

>Potomac Air will be and has always been a wholly owned carrier.
POT does not exsist, except on paper. In fact one of PDT's best 200 series AC is currently mothballed in the JAX Mx hangar to keep POT alive. If U is so hard up for cash, how can they afford to have a multi-million dollar-hard asset in storage?

>Problem solved.
Negative, problem still has a long way to go before resolve is reached.
>
Nobody has to get upset over jets for jobs and the furloughed mainline pilot, the only pilot that should benefit from relaxing our scope, will have a job.
What? The only pilot? You mean only mainline pilots will have jobs?
>
Everybody is happy...Right? Sure.
We could be. Stop treating us like we are "beneath" you.
Later

 

[BoredToDeath]

Very nice posts Jetprop. And to everyone that has posted on this subject, Mainline and WO alike, I think that its a good sign that we are voiceing our opinions, it shows that there may be hope in coming to an agreement that benifits both groups. As long as we can look past our own needs and look at eachothers, we may be able to find a solution right here! Think of how much money that would save our unions in negotiating this at the local strip club.


So I'll just start with just one idea that might help in getting US Airways to get back on track, and everyone else join in and come up with one good "unselfish" idea. First if we take a step back and look at US Airways from an investers point of view, this would not be a wise investment. U is leveraged to the hilt, and it appears that the management here is making FIVE Times the salaries of DAL, UAL, CO, and some others. So any concessions need to first come from above before anything else.

Anyone else agree or disagree please chim in and we'll just call this a simple starting point for a basic plan to keep this airline flying.

 

[FR8mastr]

flybywire, Yes if the RJ's go to Mesa it will be the mainline MEC's fault. Your scope language has the power to dictate how many and where the RJ's go!!!!!!! If it didnt POT would not even be an issue.

 

[WSurf]

I would say that only 50% of the mainline pilots even know that there are 3 WO's. Everytime I jumpseat, "So who do you fly for?", my response "Piedmont Airlines!" (Like it's cool to be a WO) There Repsone, "So How do you like those RJ's we got for ya"!!!! GIVE ME A BREAK.

 

[GUNRUNNER22]

Mainline Pigs

I love how the mainline pigs come on the regional post and start their drivle.
Let's start with some simple questions. Why did Uasshair allow these rj's to be placed at contract carriers in the first place? Hmmm, I know because they didn't want to spend the money on SJ's (what a stupid name) when they could get more airbusses. So to shorten the answer... Greed!
Why did the U mec not pass the proposed flowthru agreement? We don't need no stinking flowthru. We will be hiring forever! Short answer... Screw you scooter trash!
Now the world has certainly changed. The airbus was empty (until they parked all the 737-200, DC-9, F-100, oh yeah, and MD-80's) now they are full again. But we need to find jobs for our fellow greedy pigs. Scooter trash, thats where you come in.
Maybe not, hey, fellow pigs... lets give total control of the regional jets to contract carriers and beg for jobs over at their companies!
If it wasn't a true story it would almost be comical. You guys would cut off your nose to spite your face, example... Let's not give the wholly owned companies rj's and work under their work rules (which are far better than anyone elses). Let's give more to the contract guys who's contract really sucks.
Face it you guys are not going back to mainline for a verrrrrrrry long time.
Enjoy your break!

GUNRUNNER22

 

[becket]

Gunrunner22:

I'm glad to see the internet has made it's way into your trailer park. With access to the outside world now, it must feel like you're livin' in a double wide. Congratulations. I've discusses every fine point of our scope and rj's. Everyone believe what you want. Here is a pointer though, and I know i'm going to get skewered for this one, but you all need to look at the name of your union. The word "Union" does not appear. "Association" appears. There is a very big difference. The bottom line is you're opinion on the inner workings of ALPA will change as you change jobs. If you were a furloughed Mainline pilot who spent years at the commuters already, and you saw your airline sell over 100 aircraft and immediately move to replace your job and your flying with RJ's then you can bet your as* that you would feel the way same way as the 1073 who are on furlough. Some of you want to turn this into an elitist class war but nothing could be further from the truth. Being an airline pilot is not nearly as lucritive as it was 20 years ago. That's because contracts have been under constant attack. For those of you who applaud the 70 rj's and can't wait to get paid 24 dollars an hour to sit right seat, You need to wake up and realize that the quality of this profession gets slammed every time an rj's takes off. That is fact, not belittlement. So we're all going to have different opinions because our interests are diametrically opposed. Thus the Achilles heal of ALPA. It's not a union. It's an association. Remember that.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

I know that I am going to be a HEEL for this, but I had to chime in. Did you ever notice how mainline pilots rationalize the raiding of their union brothers' and sisters' jobs by reminding us that ALPA stands for the Air Line Pilots ASSOCIATION. As if that changes the organization's mission or the fact that ALPA calls itself "The Union of Air Line Pilots" in many of its campaign materials.

If Becket wants to use this ASSociation word-play as justification for the theft of WO jobs, nice try, but it wont work. Instead of factionalizing this whole situation, he would be better served by seeking an "associative" solution. Management is counting on our inability to forge any common solution.

Remember the USToo initiative a few years back? Why hasn't even the most rudimentary flow through ever showed in the final form up in any contracts, LOAs, or J4J ruses? Perhaps Becket could take a break from criticizing the spelling/grammer of other posters and answer some of these 'relevant' questions.

 

[Beavis]

Becket, we understand and appreciate the point of the scope claus in your contracts, as well as fell for all the pilots currently furloughed. That alone has far reaching affects on us all. I have friends furloughed, others who were in hiring pools prior to 9/11 who may never get the call, and the rest of us will wait along time to ever get the chance at the major job. However, you do not understand what we at the wholly-owneds are fighting for. Fact, major airlines use express carriers to feed customers to the hubs and to fly to smaller outreaching cities not served by the mainline. Well, the trend is to do this in a smaller jet (RJ) aircraft. The passangers want this service! And Delta, CO,NWA , United and American do it in an all jet fleet at their express carriers.(or close to it) U does not. They feed in old turboprops, and are losing customers to the other airlines. How does this devalue to profession everytime an RJ departs?? That makes no sence!!! If anything, it brings value to how the customer is served. At the WO's.....we see these aircraft going to contract carriers like Mesa and TSA. Flying outsourced out of our company to the lowest bidder, and hence threatening our jobs. All we want is for the new aircraft to come here instead of there....or stay on mainline if they are being used to fly routes DC-9 of F100's flew! BUT NOT TO GO TO A CONTRACT CARRIER!!!! This is ultimate to our survival as companies! Jets are here to do the job that the Shorts, Metroliners, Beechs, Saabs, and Dashs did in the past! Why is that so threatening to you mainliners?? If PDT got 78 seats Dash-8 400's would that be so threatening? No, why - because they spin a prop? Whats the difference? But the paying customers want a jet to take them from point A to point B. So lets work something out, and give it to them.....or they will continue to flock to NWA, CO, AA and United!!! Who wins there? The competition!

 

[InclusiveScope]

From Webster's

"Association" - a union of persons in a society for some common purpose.

Becket, how can this happen when our "Association" has condoned the idea of multiple alter-ego carriers flying for the same master? Your tight scope language restricting the number of RJs has done nothing to promote job security. Rather it has helped Delta, Continental, SWA, and JetBlue steal your passengers. The wholly owned carriers of PDT, ALG, and PSA are the only profitable parts of USAirways. They have been loyal ALPA pilots trying to work with mainline. Many of them have been carrying USAirways passengers safely for longer than the furloughed mainline pilots. Many of them have been members of this association for much longer than the furloughed mainline pilots. How dare you think you can just dictate their future because you are a "mainline" pilot. If this wonderful "Association" had not insisted upon differentiating between "mainline" and "regional", we might not be in this mess now.


To the WO pilots, keep up the good work and don't back down.

InclusiveScope