Potomac Air & Jets for Jobs

[becket]

Okay, you guys just go on believing what you want. I agree that leaving any job for another one is a bit of a gamble. But, here is the lynchpin that none of you want to acknowledge. It is US Airways mainline pilots scope clause that determines SOLELY how many rjs, what size rjs, what percentage rjs can be flown in various scheduleing scenarios, on and on and on. These are obviously not your jets or your routes or your flying. If you stay at an airline with no scope language yourself then you are also the one taking a gamble and can blame nobody but yourself. Look at Freedom Airlines. Mesa pilots scream that those 700 and 900's are "their" flying. Guess what, no scope, no case. These are not their airplanes because they never had the forsight to contractually protect them. US Airways MEC holds all of the cards when it comes to rj's. That is no accident that is the contract. That is why it is our flying. You can go on and on pontificating fine points, and mulling over how you think thing should be or keep trying in vain to inject your pilot group into our contract or whatever else you guys want to say, but, at the end of the day the facts remain the facts. I don't know what else to say here. It couldn't be any more cut and dried. There is no room for interpretation on this one. To give you an idea how ironclad our scope language is you have to look no further than them envoking Force Majeure, eliminating 11,000 positions yet did not touch our scope clause. Wouldn't you think they would just throw the rj's on line and tell us to grieve it like they do everything else? They didn't because there is no way they can. Iron Clad scope period. Also, If you think J4J is total B.S. all you have to do is call your MEC and let your voice be heard loud and clear. I hope every wholly owned and contract carrier block the J4J thing. That means they all go to Potomac where they belong and all the furloughed guys fly them at captain rates. It was our dues that bought that contract, we are the only ones who should benefit. Okay enough said on this subject, I have nothing else to say, fire away.

 

[twgrote]

Why don't we try this arguement in terms of a different industry and see what makes sense. Since this is my reply, I'll choose the automobile industry.

We all know that General Motors makes cars and trucks, (i.e. mainline). We also know that GM makes some other their own parts at various and seperate facilities, (i.e. wholey owned). And we probably know that GM utilizes many outsource vendors to supply parts and/or components, (i.e. non-wholey owned).

When GM builds a Buick, they use mainline employees to assemble the vehicle. And they buy radios from Delco Electonics, (a seperate, but wholey owned company). They also buy Tires from Goodyear, windshields from P.P.G., and lubricants from Valvoline, all of whom would be non-wholey owned suppliers.

Now using the USAir Mainline Pilot's logic, if GM were to suffer a slowdown in sales and find themselves in a position where they have to layoff a bunch of mainline GM assembly employees, those mainline employees would have the right to head on over to Delco, Goodyear, or P.P.G. and tell those employees: "Hey. Go home. You're being replaced by the big dog (until I don't want to make radios, tires, or glass anymore".

I think we can see that this kind of "eat-your-young" mentality would never happen in another industry. It's immoral, wrong, and probably illegal.

And for a union, (i.e. ALPA, who represents all three; mainline, wholey owned, and non-wholey owned employees), to endorse such canabalistic behavior is unconscienable. But that's an entirely different can o' worms.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Hope this makes sense. Let the flames begin.

 

[becket]

excellent point about the auto industry. Let me use that same analogy except make it acurate. It's not like the auto workers will displace the radio workers, it's like the auto workers that get paid a decent wage lose their jobs. The next day GM goes to delco and says you are now expanding and making our CARS not radios but our CARS the same ones that the "mainline" worker made. Except you are getting crappy benefits no good work rules and 2/3rds less pay. We agree on one thing, that would absolutely never ever happen in another unionized industry. It's not anybody eating their young it's outsourcing to a much cheaper labor group... completetly violating our hard earned and expensively obtained contract. I hope I've clarified things a bit for you. Good luck in your career.

 

[flybywire]

I am just curious what you guys want? Years ago you all complained when mesa started flying the jets under the Us Airways colors, saying that it should be the wo's. But mesa was the one buying them, which gives them the right to fly them right? Now that mainline is buying them and putting them at the wo's your still not happy. Do you really think it's fair that mainline buys them and all the pilots at the regionals get to fly them possibly create new positions at these companies while there are 1073 pilots on furlough at mainline??? Bottom line.... if you guys really don't want the jets then pick up the phone or send an email to Dave Siegal or Stephen wolf and let them know. I am sure that they will be more then happy to give the flying to mesa or other outsourced companies. Problem solved!!!!!! And there would be nothing to complain about.

 

[Vinman]

Becket,

Your interpretation is not quite accurate either. Delco is not making the exact same cars, they are just making larger radios. All the Express carriers currently operate planes. Most Express carriers want to have more planes. Now those planes just happen to be bigger. If you think the flying is yours, then have USAirways purchase RJ's, revise your contract to include rates for 35-50 and 51-70 seat planes with the applicable lower pay scales (they are smaller planes of course), and start flying smaller jets at mainline. The reason you are out of work is because it is unprofitable to fly an A320 on a route that is only boarding 30 people. Those same 30 people would be profitable in an E135. Now you really wouldn't have anything to complain about because you would be brought back from furlough at mainline, none of "your" flying would be someone elses, and Express carriers would not have to foot the bill for your training costs and CA's pay only to have you leave when you get called back to mainline!

 

[FR8mastr]

Becket, you still dont get it. Yes the mainline does dictate when and where rj's will go. and that is the whole point. Instead of putting those 70 rj's at your fellow us group companies you sent them to Mesa and any other company that said they would fly one. Once the RJ's are on somebody elses property Your allmighty Mec does not control them anymore, management does. Your management and another company's management. Dont believe me, go try and fly a Mesa RJ. Had Your mec worked it out with the WO's you could do exactly that. Why? because we are the same company! Our paychecks come from crystal city just as yours does. The wholly owned companies have "0" that's NO!!! power over anything we do Our boss, your boss makes those decisions. We can't tell our management anything about rj's or anything else because they dont have any power to negotiate anything. We can't talk to our real boss because ALPA and mainline MEC wont give a single carrier. For years the Mainline MEC has hung the flowthru carrot in front of us, all the while stabbing us in the back. Yes, we are at your mercy, but you also need us. Let management keep outsourcing all the flying to Mesa and whoever and we are all done. WE need each other to have any chance of surviving. If your MEC would just quit trying to put us on the street you would find we would go to great lengths to give Mainline what they need. We want mainline to grow!!! I don't want your job, I want the new mainline Job thats created when WE THE US AIRWAYS GROUP PILOTS grow. The WO pay and benefits are generally much better than contract carriers. We are on the same side. How would have flowthru cost you any jobs??? we know how flow back will cost us jobs. why should you guys flow down without any chance of us ever flowing up? Management is probably laughing their arses off at how easy it is to turn us all against each other and destroy our union

 

[Vinman]

Fr8mastr,

Good Point!

 

[WSurf]

Piedmont (ALG, PSA) Pilots

“We will be meeting with the Company on Tuesday to begin negotiations for the RJ deal. Olav, myself, and the Negotiating Committee will be representing the pilots. Please listen to the hotline, and make yourself heard to your reps. Please don't sit silently by and make us guess what you want, we want what is best for us all and the only way we will know for sure what you want is if you tell us. This is going to be tough, all the signs point to Group asking for concessions in return for RJs. Another problem is that there are time constraints. We have a standing resolution that any changes to the contract have to be ratified by the pilots, one that I endorse. This takes time though, and time is something we may or may not have. Please let your thoughts and feelings be heard by your reps via ASPEN, emial or a phone call. Replying here on Crew Voice will not be an effective way to communicate with your reps because we will be too busy to look here during negotiations.”
From PDT PILOT:

MEC1. Scope: We should have some scope language with regards to our current Dash 8 flying not being reduced until some date in the future. I am concerned that if the company makes any decision to replace our current Dash lines with the new RJs on a one for one basis, that some Piedmont pilots will be negatively affected. For example: Currently our Dash 8’s are staffed on average with 8 pilots per aircraft. An RJ would be staffed by 10 pilots per aircraft. However, only 5 of the 10 pilots positions would be filled by Piedmont pilots, the other 5 by mainline furloughees. On a one for one replacement the effect would be a net loss of 3 Piedmont pilot positions. This scope could be accomplished by setting some date in the future when Dash 8 flying could be reduced or when certain attrition occurs ie retirements, mainline furloughees returning to mainline.
2. Seniority: The mainline furloughees should be given seniority numbers as new hires. The only preference should be their mainline seniority in obtaining left or right seat in the RJs. They should receive no other preference for seniority with regards to any part of our current contract. This is imperative. Any seniority preference at Piedmont would be the equivalent of a “forced flow through agreement”. The Piedmont pilot group has been denied a flow through many times by mainline, and the mainline pilots should not get to enact such an agreement now just because they are faced with hard times.
3. Furloughs: If at anytime Piedmont is faced with furloughs, then the mainline furloughees would have to be released before any Piedmont pilot is released. It would also be a good idea to go ahead and add all current Piedmont pilots to the “no furlough list”. However, furloughs should not be an issue if seniority is worked out as stated above.
4. RJ Pay: Pay should be more than our current Dash 8 rates. However, I do not think at this time that we should fight for industry leading pay rates, but they should be competitive. This is an area where I think we can be flexible. We do have a formula already in place for RJs in our current contract and that may be a good place to start.
5. Working Agreement: Our current contract is amendable May 16, 2004. We should not make any amendment to our work rules before that. The RJs should come in on our current contract with no changes other than RJ pay rates. We can discuss contract terms in December of 2003 when we begin negotiations for our new contract. NOT BEFORE.
6. Voting: This is crucial in my opinion. I believe that any agreement should be ratified by our pilot group, not just our MEC. Any agreement that is arrived at could severely affect the future of the individuals that comprise this pilot group. Therefore everyone should get a vote on any agreement made. I understand that time is of the essence and things are moving fast, however we should not allow a handful of people to decide the fate of this entire pilot group. Setting time constraints and short deadlines is a negotiating tool and a trap that we should not fall into. Right now the ball is in our court and we should take our time think things through, discuss, and allow all the pilots an opportunity to weigh in by voting up or down on an agreement.
With all that said, and I may have missed something, I believe that if management cannot agree to the things I have said above then we should pass and let them move on to one of the other express carriers. The reason I say this is, if the items above cannot be agreed to in general then the deal management wants us to take is probably not good. If any of the items above are denied then it would leave big loopholes that would probably end up negatively some if not all the Piedmont pilots.
I appreciate your interest in our opinions and feelings regarding the RJ issues. I wish you all the best of luck in your talks with management and leave you to hammer out the details.

 

[charterpuke]

Patomic Air

Patomac Air was not the airline that was to have come out of the UAL/USAir merger. It was called DCAir.

 

[FR8mastr]

Charterpuke, Patomac was the regional airline allready in place to feed the proposed DC Air. They took PDT dashes to do this, they also took PDT and ALG routes to fly them. This was a non ALPA carrier being handed routes by US GROUP. Under threat of lawsuites from Alpa US Group relented and disbanded Patomic. Until now it has risen again.