Potomac Air & Jets for Jobs

[Vinman]

Flybywire,

I and everybody else out here doesn't want to see the number you put up here (1073), as does nobody else who sits in a cockpit anywhere. Here is what the objections are though.

#1 There is no flow through agreement to mainline. Simply stated, why should there in essence be a flowback agreement?

#2 If you do get jobs at any Express carrier (whether WO or Contract) that get jets, why do you;

a. Get CA pay regardless of seat; &
b. Don't have to surrender seniority and recall rights at your
other job? (ie. I just started at a company where I was
required to sign a letter giving up seniority at any
previous job and it was then sent by my new employer to
my old employer. This should apply to mainliners as
well.)

#3 When (hopefully not if) you get recalled, will there be anything that will require you to fulfill a certain length of stay at the Express carrier since they just had to pay for you to be trained in essentially their airplane (WO and Contract carriers have separate accounting books to keep track of from mainline).

#4 Why don't you get the jets at Mainline? Why do they have to go to Express carriers? If they are really flying your routes (ie routes that mainline had previously flown, but due to circumstances, such as 9/11, loads have not been high enough for an A320), what is stopping them from being started at USAirways?

#5 Passengers are wanting RJ's period. We all know how ignorant paxs can be, but they think because it is a jet, it is safer. The obvious benefit is that it is quieter as well. There are markets that still need turboprop service, simply because jets can't operate into or wouldn't be economical enough to operate into certain cities. Passengers are increasingly driving to where they can get jet service though. With the proliferation of carriers flying out of the cheaper, out of the way airports, passengers have more options today than they did 5 years ago. They are now choosing the jet!

If we, as a group (mainline and express), don't play some pretty quick catch-up, we may all be out of a job. As much as you are trying to save your job, we are only trying to save our contract integrity. I can't walk over to USAirways and say that I am part of you and so I will dictate what you do because you have a contract. We only ask the same.

 

[JetProp]

>Except this time it isn't "taking" anything from anybody.
POT has a history of "taking" from the WO's. We (PDT) had payroll problems, upgrade slowed down, and many were bumped down in domicile as a result of POT. ALG's acceptance of 100's was delayed because of POT.

>Potomac Air will be a completely stand alone self sufficient airline.
It wasn't before. POT siphoned off PDT assets and personnel at the expense of existing WO personnel.

>The pilots will be 100% staffed with furloughed US Airways pilots.
Why are you willing to accept a "B" scale? What other airline is starting a special WO for furloughed pilots? CAL, DAL, UAL, AA, TWAA, and NWA sure as heck aren't staring a special airline within an airline for furloughees.

> Furthermore, US Airways has agreed to automatically acknowledge that the Potomac pilots are represented by ALPA.
They are not a non union carrier this time.
That's to help get around the WO's lawsuit and CBA. How can ALPA say Freedom Air is an Alter Ego, but whole-heartedly endorse POT?

>This is not an Alter-Ego airline or any other BS.
Yes it is. It's total BS.

>The other wholly owned pilots have been screaming that the rj's should go to the wholly owned carriers.
Rightfully so. The RJ's should have gone to the Wo's from day one.

>Potomac Air will be and has always been a wholly owned carrier.
POT does not exsist, except on paper. In fact one of PDT's best 200 series AC is currently mothballed in the JAX Mx hangar to keep POT alive. If U is so hard up for cash, how can they afford to have a multi-million dollar-hard asset in storage?

>Problem solved.
Negative, problem still has a long way to go before resolve is reached.
>
Nobody has to get upset over jets for jobs and the furloughed mainline pilot, the only pilot that should benefit from relaxing our scope, will have a job.
What? The only pilot? You mean only mainline pilots will have jobs?
>
Everybody is happy...Right? Sure.
We could be. Stop treating us like we are "beneath" you.
Later

 

[BoredToDeath]

Very nice posts Jetprop. And to everyone that has posted on this subject, Mainline and WO alike, I think that its a good sign that we are voiceing our opinions, it shows that there may be hope in coming to an agreement that benifits both groups. As long as we can look past our own needs and look at eachothers, we may be able to find a solution right here! Think of how much money that would save our unions in negotiating this at the local strip club.


So I'll just start with just one idea that might help in getting US Airways to get back on track, and everyone else join in and come up with one good "unselfish" idea. First if we take a step back and look at US Airways from an investers point of view, this would not be a wise investment. U is leveraged to the hilt, and it appears that the management here is making FIVE Times the salaries of DAL, UAL, CO, and some others. So any concessions need to first come from above before anything else.

Anyone else agree or disagree please chim in and we'll just call this a simple starting point for a basic plan to keep this airline flying.

 

[FR8mastr]

flybywire, Yes if the RJ's go to Mesa it will be the mainline MEC's fault. Your scope language has the power to dictate how many and where the RJ's go!!!!!!! If it didnt POT would not even be an issue.

 

[WSurf]

I would say that only 50% of the mainline pilots even know that there are 3 WO's. Everytime I jumpseat, "So who do you fly for?", my response "Piedmont Airlines!" (Like it's cool to be a WO) There Repsone, "So How do you like those RJ's we got for ya"!!!! GIVE ME A BREAK.

 

[GUNRUNNER22]

Mainline Pigs

I love how the mainline pigs come on the regional post and start their drivle.
Let's start with some simple questions. Why did Uasshair allow these rj's to be placed at contract carriers in the first place? Hmmm, I know because they didn't want to spend the money on SJ's (what a stupid name) when they could get more airbusses. So to shorten the answer... Greed!
Why did the U mec not pass the proposed flowthru agreement? We don't need no stinking flowthru. We will be hiring forever! Short answer... Screw you scooter trash!
Now the world has certainly changed. The airbus was empty (until they parked all the 737-200, DC-9, F-100, oh yeah, and MD-80's) now they are full again. But we need to find jobs for our fellow greedy pigs. Scooter trash, thats where you come in.
Maybe not, hey, fellow pigs... lets give total control of the regional jets to contract carriers and beg for jobs over at their companies!
If it wasn't a true story it would almost be comical. You guys would cut off your nose to spite your face, example... Let's not give the wholly owned companies rj's and work under their work rules (which are far better than anyone elses). Let's give more to the contract guys who's contract really sucks.
Face it you guys are not going back to mainline for a verrrrrrrry long time.
Enjoy your break!

GUNRUNNER22

 

[becket]

Gunrunner22:

I'm glad to see the internet has made it's way into your trailer park. With access to the outside world now, it must feel like you're livin' in a double wide. Congratulations. I've discusses every fine point of our scope and rj's. Everyone believe what you want. Here is a pointer though, and I know i'm going to get skewered for this one, but you all need to look at the name of your union. The word "Union" does not appear. "Association" appears. There is a very big difference. The bottom line is you're opinion on the inner workings of ALPA will change as you change jobs. If you were a furloughed Mainline pilot who spent years at the commuters already, and you saw your airline sell over 100 aircraft and immediately move to replace your job and your flying with RJ's then you can bet your as* that you would feel the way same way as the 1073 who are on furlough. Some of you want to turn this into an elitist class war but nothing could be further from the truth. Being an airline pilot is not nearly as lucritive as it was 20 years ago. That's because contracts have been under constant attack. For those of you who applaud the 70 rj's and can't wait to get paid 24 dollars an hour to sit right seat, You need to wake up and realize that the quality of this profession gets slammed every time an rj's takes off. That is fact, not belittlement. So we're all going to have different opinions because our interests are diametrically opposed. Thus the Achilles heal of ALPA. It's not a union. It's an association. Remember that.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

I know that I am going to be a HEEL for this, but I had to chime in. Did you ever notice how mainline pilots rationalize the raiding of their union brothers' and sisters' jobs by reminding us that ALPA stands for the Air Line Pilots ASSOCIATION. As if that changes the organization's mission or the fact that ALPA calls itself "The Union of Air Line Pilots" in many of its campaign materials.

If Becket wants to use this ASSociation word-play as justification for the theft of WO jobs, nice try, but it wont work. Instead of factionalizing this whole situation, he would be better served by seeking an "associative" solution. Management is counting on our inability to forge any common solution.

Remember the USToo initiative a few years back? Why hasn't even the most rudimentary flow through ever showed in the final form up in any contracts, LOAs, or J4J ruses? Perhaps Becket could take a break from criticizing the spelling/grammer of other posters and answer some of these 'relevant' questions.

 

[Beavis]

Becket, we understand and appreciate the point of the scope claus in your contracts, as well as fell for all the pilots currently furloughed. That alone has far reaching affects on us all. I have friends furloughed, others who were in hiring pools prior to 9/11 who may never get the call, and the rest of us will wait along time to ever get the chance at the major job. However, you do not understand what we at the wholly-owneds are fighting for. Fact, major airlines use express carriers to feed customers to the hubs and to fly to smaller outreaching cities not served by the mainline. Well, the trend is to do this in a smaller jet (RJ) aircraft. The passangers want this service! And Delta, CO,NWA , United and American do it in an all jet fleet at their express carriers.(or close to it) U does not. They feed in old turboprops, and are losing customers to the other airlines. How does this devalue to profession everytime an RJ departs?? That makes no sence!!! If anything, it brings value to how the customer is served. At the WO's.....we see these aircraft going to contract carriers like Mesa and TSA. Flying outsourced out of our company to the lowest bidder, and hence threatening our jobs. All we want is for the new aircraft to come here instead of there....or stay on mainline if they are being used to fly routes DC-9 of F100's flew! BUT NOT TO GO TO A CONTRACT CARRIER!!!! This is ultimate to our survival as companies! Jets are here to do the job that the Shorts, Metroliners, Beechs, Saabs, and Dashs did in the past! Why is that so threatening to you mainliners?? If PDT got 78 seats Dash-8 400's would that be so threatening? No, why - because they spin a prop? Whats the difference? But the paying customers want a jet to take them from point A to point B. So lets work something out, and give it to them.....or they will continue to flock to NWA, CO, AA and United!!! Who wins there? The competition!

 

[InclusiveScope]

From Webster's

"Association" - a union of persons in a society for some common purpose.

Becket, how can this happen when our "Association" has condoned the idea of multiple alter-ego carriers flying for the same master? Your tight scope language restricting the number of RJs has done nothing to promote job security. Rather it has helped Delta, Continental, SWA, and JetBlue steal your passengers. The wholly owned carriers of PDT, ALG, and PSA are the only profitable parts of USAirways. They have been loyal ALPA pilots trying to work with mainline. Many of them have been carrying USAirways passengers safely for longer than the furloughed mainline pilots. Many of them have been members of this association for much longer than the furloughed mainline pilots. How dare you think you can just dictate their future because you are a "mainline" pilot. If this wonderful "Association" had not insisted upon differentiating between "mainline" and "regional", we might not be in this mess now.


To the WO pilots, keep up the good work and don't back down.

InclusiveScope

 

[becket]

Sorry to burst the delusion of Gradure that you guys seem to have but here's a news flash. The pilots at every airline are nothing more than W2 Wage earners. They don't make the decisions that will make or break a company. I could go on all night about how Steven Wolf and his cronies continued to rape and pillige this airline. They totally abrogated their fudiciary responsibilities to the share holder, and their moral obligation to their employees and our customers. Wolf refused to meet with alpa several times regarding the rj's. It litterally took an inquiry from Congress to get him to the negotiating table and he walked away from the most liberal rj deal in the industry. Steven Wolfs Neglect got us into the position. Period. That's it. Employees did not manage to put us in this position at all. This fact was directly addressed by our new CEO when he said, and I quote directly, "the managment that got us into this mess, is not the managment that can get us out" You can go on blaming the pilots for the demise of the airline all you want. I know you think you're god like because you have an ATP, (maybe) but when you eventually come back to reality, maybe you'll realize how completely idiotic it is to blame the employee for the managment failure, which US Airways clearly is. I have never understood the wholly owned mentality that assumed that our MEC is omnipotent. I have also never understood why their percieved short stick is all our pilots problem either. I guess I'm missing something. I've never been a fan of entitlment.

 

[FR8mastr]

Becket, please answer a few questions for me. What was so terrible about flowthru? Why does the Mainline MEC not want to deal with the WO's. Why would you guys not just fly the rj's at the mainline with the same rules as would be at POT. Why do you think Management only will aknowledge ALPA at POT but not actually have it there? If the Mainline guys at POT ever get recalled what do you think will happen to the new pilots that take their place? Remember POT is non Union now, just like it was for the United deal. I'm not busting chops, I really want to know.

 

[becket]

FR8,

1. Nothing is wrong at all with a flow thru. Believe it or not, Flow thru was supposed to be a part of the "big" rj deal that was discussed back in 2000. Remeber when Wolf wanted another 35 rj's and we gave them to him, part of that very deal was that WITHIN SIX MONTHS we were supposed to hammer out a comprehensive rj deal that, among other things, would have provided a flow thru. US Airways MEC specifically made that part of the mini deal and Wolf signed it. What happened then you ask? Well, the United merger. Wolf ignored the rj issue as well as the entire airline for a year and a half chasing his tail for the big 60 dollar a share pay off. They violated the terms of the mini deal years ago and here we are today. Again, it's Wolfs fault.

2. The only thing I've ever seen where our MEC has said they are having any difficulty at all with the wholly owneds is post 9-11 where we recieved a letter basically saying that the wholly owned MEC had more or less declared war on our MEC and that they were disappointed that it would be so difficult to work with them. I'm sure everybody has a viewpoint on why they're pissed and I'm sure some points are probably valid, but you asked and that's what I know.

3. There is not a pilot at this company that wouldn't rather fly rj's on the mainline, even for the same pay, than at POT. You'd have to ask Dave Siegel why he is making the airplanes go over there. I really have no idea. Again, managment, not pilots. If we could just snap our fingers and make the airplanes appear at any given carrier, wouldn't you think we'd put them on the mailine? Of course we would, therfore we don't have the power than some would like to believe we do.

4. When the first pilot hits the POT property in a training environment POT will be an ALPA carrier. Those two events will be simultaneous. POT is nothing but a shell at this point. When it gets ramped up it is automatically an ALPA carrier.

5. After POT runs out of furloughed mainline guys I guess they'll hire off the street or make some arrangment for guys to make a lateral move over to POT. Again, You'd have to ask the CEO what the plan with POT is. I really don't know. Will it be here in 5 years? Your guess is as good as mine. Will US Airways be here in 5 years? UAL? AWA? who knows.

I hope this answers your questions. Take them for what they are worth, I'm not in a position of authority and these are all my personal observations. The condition of US Airways is the fault of Steven Wolf and his cronies. They lied, they stole, and they have levereged everything this airline has to keep it's head above water. We get Force Manjeured out of 11,000 jobs, we are going to get pay, and benefit cuts but don't you find it suspicioius that FM applies to only the union contracts? Wolf and Gangwal still get their multi-million dollar seperation packages. Somehow FM doesn't reach that high. Funny.

 

[FR8mastr]

Becket, thanks for your responce, it is appreciated. As far as your views of Wolf and Management I couldnt agree more. The only thing I disagree on was prior to the United deal starting your MEC once put off LOA 78 (I think that was it) for almost two months because of a crew meal grievance. I remember the code a phone announcement "no further talks untill the grievance is resolved" Prior to that the MEC was promising that a flow thru agreement along with rj's would be resolved prior to any new hiring at the mainline. These two things are what really got a bug up the WO's butts, as we knew the importance of the RJ issues way back. As it turns out the RJ and flowthru thing was more important than either of us thought.

The letter you refer to after 9/11 was mainly because of the mainline announcement that Mesa and whoever were going to be getting future RJ's. If and when the "mesa's" get more RJ's it will be at the WO expense. One of the other carriers was not even ALPA.

As far as POT and ALPA I hope your correct, it seems to me management is going above and beyond to not officially let ALPA in. I don't know the legalities of it all, it just sounds fishy. Tell whomever will listen to watchout.

I just found out tonight that our management (your managemnet) has asked our pilot group for more concessions, and announced that we are losing 6 or more dashes this year.
they also want to take away some of our defined benefits, mainly our retirement and premium pay. The reason for this, according to managemement, is to make room for the new RJ's. Our mec has figured that we will be down to 31 dashes by next July. It's obvious what this will do to our pilot ranks. Ofcourse this is all preliminary, at least the concession part of it. Losing the Dashes and management asking is fact. Alot of us feel bitter about this because we have been screaming about this for years and it seemed as if we were just being dismissed by the mainline MEC. Now your furloughed guys will be putting our guys on the street and we still cant get a seniority number at the bottom of your list.

I hope in all this tirade that you understand the WO point of view a little more as I want to understand the mainline issues. I believe the only way we can survive all this in the longrun is to work together for a commom goal. We have a good start, we all want mainline to survive and grow, we just want the WO to be included. Thanks again for responding.

 

[NCFlyer]

Becket,

You can stand on your scope pedestal and claim “we got it, you want it, too bad”. But let’s look at some of the facts. The U MEC got scope protection not through superior negotiating skills but rather management’s desperate need to get contract concessions to try and keep USAir operating. If memory serves me well the concessions were in the area of $150 million per year in wage and work rule concessions. So you can stand up and rightly say you bought your scope protection. Management would have just about given up the farm for the concessions. In reality management may have only prolonged the inevitable. U has managed to survive a few more years but may well be on its deathbed as we debate the scope situation.

Let’s look at some other facts:
1. USAirways has the highest seat mile cost in the industry, nearly double SWA’s cost.
2. USAirways “parity +1%” virtually guarantees it will remain the highest cost airline in the industry. Management may have been able to swallow the higher cost with productivity gains but now USAirways biggest competitors aren’t United, Delta, & American (whom they are guaranteed parity with). But rather their biggest competition comes from ASA, Comair, ACA, Eagle, and CoEx. There is no way Airbuses & Boeings can compete cost effectively against RJ’s.
3. Every major airline in this country has looked at & decided that RJ’s could not be operated cost effectively at the mainline level. And that is not just because of the pilot wages. It is the entire overhead associated with operating the aircraft. Mainline mechanics, flight attendants, and costumer service personnel costs are all higher at the mainline and reduce the cost effectiveness of the RJs.
4. Much if not the majority of USAirways east coast flying is regional flying in nature. They just do it in Airbuses & Boeings.
5. We at the wholly owneds don’t want the mainline jobs. We would love to see the mainline continue to grow & hopefully provide jobs for some of our pilots.

However, when Wolfe-Gang was at the helm of this ship both were on record stating their desire/need to replace up to 80% of the Express turboprops with RJs. Then in the next sentence saying there is no plan to put RJs at any WO. Now it is getting real personal. Here at PDT we have 60 Dash 8s. If you replace 80% of those with RJs and no RJs come here we are left with 12 D8s + 100 pilots.

Furthermore what business is it of you and your MEC if Airways wanted to replace all of the turboprops with RJs so long as no mainline pilot is affected? What right do you have telling any other company what kind or how many aircraft they can fly? Now I know you are going to tell me that your scope clause gives you that right, but why? As long as no mainline pilot was/is affected the mainline MEC should have no say in what is done at the regionals.

Now we can play could of - would of - should of until Hades freezes over but that doesn’t get us any closer to a solution to the problem facing us today:

USAirways is loosing money at the rate of over $2 million per day. To survive they are going to have to cut cost. Passengers want RJs & will go to whoever has them. Mainline can’t fly them cost effectively. So since the mainline can’t operate them effectively shouldn’t that be the WOs who for years have contributed to Airways bottom line, not the contract carrier who take their cash & run and in some cases even fly for our competition?

In conclusion:
I don’t know who Becket is but he has the attitude that seems prevailing at Airways (both among pilots & management). I want as much as possible for as long as possible (max pay to the last day) and I don’t want to give up anything (but who does). Then when Airways goes out of business he will take his multi-million dollar lump sum distribution & live happily ever after in his beach house. The problem is for those of us too young to retire & too old to start over we will be left on the street looking for work again.

 

[becket]

NC Flyer,

I don't have the energy to reply to your entire post. Just a few factual points you may not be aware of.


1. If the pilots worked for free, US Airways CASM would still be the highest in the industry. The problem is not the pay of the employees but in the structure of the airline.

2. CASM is HIGHER in an RJ than in either a Boeing of Airbus.

3. How do you propose we fly 60 million pax a year with an all rj fleet?

4. Bottom line is this, the WO guys are getting a taste of what it is like at Mainline to watch your flying be transfered away. We've been seeing it for years. Now we have a chance to recover some of it via J4J or POT. How do you expect our ALPA to procede? Like it or not, it's our dues money, therefore they will push our interests. Just like your airline is doing for you. There is no Union. Just the Association. If you think J4J is total B.S. then by all means block this LOA and send the airplanes to POT where they belong.

 

[NCFlyer]

Ref: becket says "If the pilots worked for free, US Airways CASM would still be the highest in the industry. The problem is not the pay of the employees but in the structure of the airline."

I couldn't agree with you more. There is another thing we agree on: J4J is BS and I believe that all the RJs will end up at POT.

 

[JetProp]

>"Bottom line is this, the WO guys are getting a taste of what it is like at Mainline to watch your flying be transfered away. We've been seeing it for years".

This is nothing new to us. We have seen contract carriers show up on many routes with RJ's and TP's. The fact is WO and mainline flying both are being transferred away.

 

[surplus1]

The real fact that you WO's don't seem to grasp is that the union you pay to represent you is helping another group that it also represents to take your jobs away.

Maybe you'll wise up when you're all unemployed. By then it will be too late.

 

[JetProp]

>"The real fact that you WO's don't seem to grasp is that the union you pay to represent you is helping another group that it also represents to take your jobs away".

We are full aware of the fact. On our closed message boards, there is a lot of dialoge on this sore subject.