Potomac Air & Jets for Jobs

[taz]

It seems quite odd that when USAirways originally started their Quest for a merger with United and gave birth to Potomac Air that all the Wholey Owned Pilots and ALPA cried bloody murder because of the percieved threat to their jobs. Now that Airways wants to startup Potomac Again with their (mainline) employee's all of a sudden all the "Wrongs" of the past magicly become "Right"!!!!!
Whats wrong with this Picture? I wonder who are the real "WHORES" now!


Their is no arbitration judge that will allow this to "FLY"!!

 

[Beavis]

Dude, you are crazy! What makes you think that anyone at a wholly owned thinks ANY part of this deal is "right" now??? This deal sucks for us now as much as before! And we will wait and see if we can resurrect our alter-ego greivance once this starts up! Where did you get the impression we are for this? That is insane! The 3 wo's are once again being left out of any deal which brings RJ's to our property. Being left out, once again, leaves us feeling that the flying we do will eventaully be outsourced to Potomac and Mesa. Nobody sees it any different!

 

[CRJFlyer]

talked with 2 buddies from Allegheny today and they feel pretty much the same way. They are afraid that unless they get the jets the flying they do will be outsourced. One guy (who's in the SIM was worried about possibly being furloughed because of the deal) he also said that somebody in the training department is somehow against getting jets. But don't quote me on that last one.

 

[Draginass]

Well, maybe it's because those jobs at Potomac Air will be their jobs, and they've got 1350 on furlough. Could that have anything to do with it? That's why scope is the most important item in a contract. It's to conserve jobs for your own members.

Arbitration??? What's there to arbitrate? Does your scope clause prevent the startup of a new company with new aircraft and possibly new routes flown under U code?

For the sake of arguement, does your scope provisions prevent, say, US Air mainline from buying RJs and have them flown by mainline pilots under US Air code? If not, why not? If mainline scoped its regionals out of unlimited aircraft, why didn't you guys scope them out of flying RJs?

 

[Timebuilder]

Last week, I had two charters where Allegheny mechanics had to be flown out of MDT to fix broken airplanes. This week, I'll ask some questions.

If I find out anything, I'll put it here.

This sounds pretty bad...

 

[chperplt]

Maybe I just don't understand what the big problem is here. US Air is a dying company that is trying to get itself back from the dead. They want to increase their RJ flying to do so. So what if they want to put their furloughed pilots in the seats of those jets. Why is it such a big problem? I haven't heard or read anything that suggests any of the wholly owned carriers will lose flying or jobs because of this. Even if some flying was lost, without those RJ's, that flying would be lost to other carriers in the long run anyway. And without those RJ's, US Air goes by-by and the there are no more wholly owned carriers.

If these RJ's bring back customers with $$$$, then the long term effect on the entire system which includes the wholly owned, will be brighter.

Someone tell me what I'm missing.

 

[VelcroJetDriver]

It's all US Airways flying and should be flown by US Airways pilots (if they want it.)

In the grand scheme of things, us regional guys are just "hired help" doing the flying that the mainline guys don't want to do. If you don't like it, apply to the low-cost majors/nationals (Jetblue, SWA, Air Tran.) Just quit whining about how US Airways pilots are taking away YOUR USAirways flying. (Just listen to how ridiculous that sounds!)

 

[becket]

Velcrojetdriver, AMEN TO THAT 1000'S OF TIMES OVER. Get over it wholly owned, the flying isn't yours okay? Got it yet? NOT yours. If it was, we wouldn't be having this conversation. 1100 mainline pilots are on furlough and you guys have been expanding. Whose expense do you think this comes from? You are entitled to NOTHING just like Spaulding in "caddyshack"... "You'll get nothing and like it!!!!" If you're life sucks look in the mirror. That's the guy who got you here nobody else. Quit blaming the US Airways pilots or their MEC. Get over it.

 

[publisher]

Not Quite

Excuse me!

I recently chided the regional pilots that it was not their flying. Well it is not the mainline pilots either.

The point you are missing is that when uSAirways signs an agreement with Mesa that restricts Mesa from doing other flying and imposes certain rules on them, that comes with an obligation the other way as well.

That you will not compete with me works two ways.

If any of you think that this whole thing is not the end of scope as you know it, you are not looking at the situation. Literally everythin g that has happended says that the airlines are not going to take this stuff anymore. If they have to reverse code share, spin off, sell out right, or whatever, they will not be going along with any of the restrictions that reduce their right to manage their own assets.

 

[FR8mastr]

Becket, you are either a Mainline pilot or you don't really understand what all the complaining is about. I guess that's the same thing. I know I have 0% chance of explaining any of this to you so I won't waste both of our time trying. But I would ask that you please try to get all the info on the US situation before blasting the WO's. (that means both sides)

 

[BoredToDeath]

Velcro and Becket,

Please refrain from making comments that you are ignorant about.

 

[VelcroJetDriver]

Gee, I guess you told us.

Care to "enlighten" us ignorant types why Express pilots have a greater right to fly USAirways routes than furloughed mainline pilots?

 

[BoredToDeath]

Velcro,

I'll try, but keep in mind I am not trying to be the expert on this subject. All of the information I share here was given to me by my fellow pilots on the line. My personnal opinions have been formed by what I have seen, heard, and learned during the past year at PSA. I think its important for you to also understand that I am not in favor of shrinking Mainline flying, nor do I want to stay at a commuter for the rest of my carreer. I'm just building my time.

I'll start by giving you the way that some, not all, of the WO pilots view the US Airways Group.

The US Airways Group is made up of four airlines:
US Airways Mainline
Piedmont
Allegany
PSA
and now they add a fifth Potomac again.
Then we have the contract airlines:
TSA
Mesa
CC Air (which is part of Mesa)
Chataqua (sp)
Shuttle America
Collgan
(I think I got them all)Thats alot of express flying at the expense of the WO express airlines.

Basic math, Group is losing money hand over fist. The mainline operation had to make cuts. Even PSA furloughed for a few months. Now I absolutely feel for the Mainline pilots who are and will be furloughed, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to give up my seat so that he/she can have a job. Had there been a flow through set up when they had the chance I would have no choice but to step down so that they could work. But thats not the way things are. These pilots took a chance on the #6 airline and it did'nt work. Hopefully they will be back at work soon so that everyone can move on to big iron. But with this company it does not look like that will happen. If the Mainline MEC really cared about these folks who got furloughed they would have takin consesions like Airtran and some others did. So much for brotherhood. I honestly don't care if the Group wants to send the furloughees to Potomac to fly, god knows there won't be any recalls for a long time. But Potomac should be made up of entirely all furloughed Mainline Pilots, no outsiders. The Jets should be divided up between PDT, ALG, PSA, and POT. For the past year all I heard was that the WO airlines would not get jets due to the fact that Group could not afford them. Now it would seem that a WO airline(POT) would in fact be getting jets. If that is so then they need to be divided among us all. The use of contract airlines needs to be reduced. And normall pay rates should apply across the board. I can't see POT being of any use if the Group has to pay Capt rates to both the Capt. and FO on an RJ. It does'nt make sence.

I hold no animositey toward the contract airlines other than the fact that by using them destroys the ability for PDT, ALG, and PSA to grow and fly jets. The idea is to keep all US Airways Group flying within the US Airways GROUP.

{Quote}It's all US Airways flying and should be flown by US Airways pilots (if they want it.)

In the grand scheme of things, us regional guys are just "hired help" doing the flying that the mainline guys don't want to do. If you don't like it, apply to the low-cost majors/nationals (Jetblue, SWA, Air Tran.) Just quit whining about how US Airways pilots are taking away YOUR USAirways flying. (Just listen to how ridiculous that sounds!) {Quote}

You honestly don't think that the Pilots make the decsions on what routes they fly, do you? If this is true then how can I tell the company that I'm tired of flying to Nashville. Mainline flying is based on how profitable a paticular route is. WO pilots know what their job is. We want to succesfully feed the Mainline aircraft so that the group will make money, increase Mainline aircraft, destinations, and freqency so that we all can move up.

You see sirs most of us are not pissed about what routes we fly. We're pissed becuase we have to sit back and watch the contract airlines fly jets into the same airports we serve. This airline did not have the foresight to see how vaulable the RJ was going to be, and now the Group is playing catch up. Too little too late.

Becket,

All I can say is, I think you need some anger management. Good luck to you sir.

 

[FR8mastr]

Bored, good post! please allow me to continue with some more thoughts. 1st that mainline can't afford to buy RJ's. They pay Mesa or whoever on a per departure basis, just for argument sake lets say its $1000. out of that $1000 the Mesa's can afford to make aircraft payment, pay the crews, maintenance ect. So the reality is they are allready paying for the RJ's just not making the profit, Mesa is. I agree with you totally that Nobody at US group wants to see reduced flying at mainline for the same reasons you stated. The thing that really gets the WO is the fact that the mainline mec tries so hard to send as much feed and all the RJ's to contract carriers at the expense of their fellow group pilots. But now that they have pilots out of work they come up with jets for jobs. Under this gem the WO get jets, mainline guys that have been employed for a couple of years or less go to the top of seniority to fly them. At first glance this isnt to bad. But a closer look reveals that when that new RJ shows up and replaces one of the props, the prop pilot is on the street. They can flow down,but we can never flow up. Yea great deal! A couple of years ago just before the United fiasco the mainline had a chance at flow thru that included just about everything they asked for IE job security, numbers of large jets and more. All they had to do was not get too greedy, but no, not to be. So yes now the WO are POed. But still willing to work any deal that will not put WO pilots on the street

 

[typhoonpilot]

FR8mastr:


The terms of this deal are much looser than the previous attempts. The only thing it says besides, 50% of the jets will be staffed by furloughed mainline pilots, is that they will be paid 1st year Captain rates regardless of seat occupied. I haven't seen any formula for how they would be integrated seniority wise or which seat they would fly in. That has yet to be worked out at the individual carriers.

 

[JetProp]

Bored to death,
Good post. You summed it up very well.
-Jetprop

 

[Vinman]

I agree whole heartedly with Fr8 and Bored. This and I am not employed by a WO carrier. Like was stated at one point, the Mainline pilots took a gamble at moving up to a Major job. They gambled their previous job/seniority to get the big piece of cheese ($$$$). Just because you take a job with a major doesn't mean you now are garaunteed a job for the rest of your life. If you thought you are entitled to a job at the regionals if they have jets, then why did you go to "USAirways," why did you not go to one of the 3 WO? The 3 WO have different names on their letterhead because they are not USAirways, hence the reason that the pilots who are working there make nowhere close to a mainline CA pay. Why now should you be able to go to their company and be able to get CA pay for any seat?

With that said, I do realize what mainliners are trying to do. At the rate that RJ's are growing in size, why are they being called RJ's any more? They are just about the size of a mainline jet and that is their point. USAirways could try to reduce all mainline flying to international or coast-to-coast flying and leave all other flying to the Express flying at a much lower pilot/support cost. (Who knows, maybe that is their plan?)

 

[skydiverdriver]

According to ALPA's bylaws, the regionals should have been merged with USAirways many years ago, and then this would not even be a question. Welcome to the fight, a little late, but welcome. Send a check to the rjdc if you want to help.

 

[Timebuilder]

Are those ALPA bylaws available for public view on a website? I'd like to know how their song differs from their dance...

 

[skydiverdriver]

I honestly don't know. But one thing I do know is that they quickly changed their bylaws as soon as we took them to court to press the issue. So, the union I joined in good faith, changed the rules after we joined them, to the detriment of all pilots who fly aircraft under 71 seats. Now, that's an organization that I can get behind! Join the rjdc now, if you ever want to work in this industry.

 

[becket]

Okay, you guys just go on believing what you want. I agree that leaving any job for another one is a bit of a gamble. But, here is the lynchpin that none of you want to acknowledge. It is US Airways mainline pilots scope clause that determines SOLELY how many rjs, what size rjs, what percentage rjs can be flown in various scheduleing scenarios, on and on and on. These are obviously not your jets or your routes or your flying. If you stay at an airline with no scope language yourself then you are also the one taking a gamble and can blame nobody but yourself. Look at Freedom Airlines. Mesa pilots scream that those 700 and 900's are "their" flying. Guess what, no scope, no case. These are not their airplanes because they never had the forsight to contractually protect them. US Airways MEC holds all of the cards when it comes to rj's. That is no accident that is the contract. That is why it is our flying. You can go on and on pontificating fine points, and mulling over how you think thing should be or keep trying in vain to inject your pilot group into our contract or whatever else you guys want to say, but, at the end of the day the facts remain the facts. I don't know what else to say here. It couldn't be any more cut and dried. There is no room for interpretation on this one. To give you an idea how ironclad our scope language is you have to look no further than them envoking Force Majeure, eliminating 11,000 positions yet did not touch our scope clause. Wouldn't you think they would just throw the rj's on line and tell us to grieve it like they do everything else? They didn't because there is no way they can. Iron Clad scope period. Also, If you think J4J is total B.S. all you have to do is call your MEC and let your voice be heard loud and clear. I hope every wholly owned and contract carrier block the J4J thing. That means they all go to Potomac where they belong and all the furloughed guys fly them at captain rates. It was our dues that bought that contract, we are the only ones who should benefit. Okay enough said on this subject, I have nothing else to say, fire away.

 

[twgrote]

Why don't we try this arguement in terms of a different industry and see what makes sense. Since this is my reply, I'll choose the automobile industry.

We all know that General Motors makes cars and trucks, (i.e. mainline). We also know that GM makes some other their own parts at various and seperate facilities, (i.e. wholey owned). And we probably know that GM utilizes many outsource vendors to supply parts and/or components, (i.e. non-wholey owned).

When GM builds a Buick, they use mainline employees to assemble the vehicle. And they buy radios from Delco Electonics, (a seperate, but wholey owned company). They also buy Tires from Goodyear, windshields from P.P.G., and lubricants from Valvoline, all of whom would be non-wholey owned suppliers.

Now using the USAir Mainline Pilot's logic, if GM were to suffer a slowdown in sales and find themselves in a position where they have to layoff a bunch of mainline GM assembly employees, those mainline employees would have the right to head on over to Delco, Goodyear, or P.P.G. and tell those employees: "Hey. Go home. You're being replaced by the big dog (until I don't want to make radios, tires, or glass anymore".

I think we can see that this kind of "eat-your-young" mentality would never happen in another industry. It's immoral, wrong, and probably illegal.

And for a union, (i.e. ALPA, who represents all three; mainline, wholey owned, and non-wholey owned employees), to endorse such canabalistic behavior is unconscienable. But that's an entirely different can o' worms.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Hope this makes sense. Let the flames begin.

 

[becket]

excellent point about the auto industry. Let me use that same analogy except make it acurate. It's not like the auto workers will displace the radio workers, it's like the auto workers that get paid a decent wage lose their jobs. The next day GM goes to delco and says you are now expanding and making our CARS not radios but our CARS the same ones that the "mainline" worker made. Except you are getting crappy benefits no good work rules and 2/3rds less pay. We agree on one thing, that would absolutely never ever happen in another unionized industry. It's not anybody eating their young it's outsourcing to a much cheaper labor group... completetly violating our hard earned and expensively obtained contract. I hope I've clarified things a bit for you. Good luck in your career.

 

[flybywire]

I am just curious what you guys want? Years ago you all complained when mesa started flying the jets under the Us Airways colors, saying that it should be the wo's. But mesa was the one buying them, which gives them the right to fly them right? Now that mainline is buying them and putting them at the wo's your still not happy. Do you really think it's fair that mainline buys them and all the pilots at the regionals get to fly them possibly create new positions at these companies while there are 1073 pilots on furlough at mainline??? Bottom line.... if you guys really don't want the jets then pick up the phone or send an email to Dave Siegal or Stephen wolf and let them know. I am sure that they will be more then happy to give the flying to mesa or other outsourced companies. Problem solved!!!!!! And there would be nothing to complain about.

 

[Vinman]

Becket,

Your interpretation is not quite accurate either. Delco is not making the exact same cars, they are just making larger radios. All the Express carriers currently operate planes. Most Express carriers want to have more planes. Now those planes just happen to be bigger. If you think the flying is yours, then have USAirways purchase RJ's, revise your contract to include rates for 35-50 and 51-70 seat planes with the applicable lower pay scales (they are smaller planes of course), and start flying smaller jets at mainline. The reason you are out of work is because it is unprofitable to fly an A320 on a route that is only boarding 30 people. Those same 30 people would be profitable in an E135. Now you really wouldn't have anything to complain about because you would be brought back from furlough at mainline, none of "your" flying would be someone elses, and Express carriers would not have to foot the bill for your training costs and CA's pay only to have you leave when you get called back to mainline!

 

[FR8mastr]

Becket, you still dont get it. Yes the mainline does dictate when and where rj's will go. and that is the whole point. Instead of putting those 70 rj's at your fellow us group companies you sent them to Mesa and any other company that said they would fly one. Once the RJ's are on somebody elses property Your allmighty Mec does not control them anymore, management does. Your management and another company's management. Dont believe me, go try and fly a Mesa RJ. Had Your mec worked it out with the WO's you could do exactly that. Why? because we are the same company! Our paychecks come from crystal city just as yours does. The wholly owned companies have "0" that's NO!!! power over anything we do Our boss, your boss makes those decisions. We can't tell our management anything about rj's or anything else because they dont have any power to negotiate anything. We can't talk to our real boss because ALPA and mainline MEC wont give a single carrier. For years the Mainline MEC has hung the flowthru carrot in front of us, all the while stabbing us in the back. Yes, we are at your mercy, but you also need us. Let management keep outsourcing all the flying to Mesa and whoever and we are all done. WE need each other to have any chance of surviving. If your MEC would just quit trying to put us on the street you would find we would go to great lengths to give Mainline what they need. We want mainline to grow!!! I don't want your job, I want the new mainline Job thats created when WE THE US AIRWAYS GROUP PILOTS grow. The WO pay and benefits are generally much better than contract carriers. We are on the same side. How would have flowthru cost you any jobs??? we know how flow back will cost us jobs. why should you guys flow down without any chance of us ever flowing up? Management is probably laughing their arses off at how easy it is to turn us all against each other and destroy our union

 

[Vinman]

Fr8mastr,

Good Point!

 

[WSurf]

Piedmont (ALG, PSA) Pilots

“We will be meeting with the Company on Tuesday to begin negotiations for the RJ deal. Olav, myself, and the Negotiating Committee will be representing the pilots. Please listen to the hotline, and make yourself heard to your reps. Please don't sit silently by and make us guess what you want, we want what is best for us all and the only way we will know for sure what you want is if you tell us. This is going to be tough, all the signs point to Group asking for concessions in return for RJs. Another problem is that there are time constraints. We have a standing resolution that any changes to the contract have to be ratified by the pilots, one that I endorse. This takes time though, and time is something we may or may not have. Please let your thoughts and feelings be heard by your reps via ASPEN, emial or a phone call. Replying here on Crew Voice will not be an effective way to communicate with your reps because we will be too busy to look here during negotiations.”
From PDT PILOT:

MEC1. Scope: We should have some scope language with regards to our current Dash 8 flying not being reduced until some date in the future. I am concerned that if the company makes any decision to replace our current Dash lines with the new RJs on a one for one basis, that some Piedmont pilots will be negatively affected. For example: Currently our Dash 8’s are staffed on average with 8 pilots per aircraft. An RJ would be staffed by 10 pilots per aircraft. However, only 5 of the 10 pilots positions would be filled by Piedmont pilots, the other 5 by mainline furloughees. On a one for one replacement the effect would be a net loss of 3 Piedmont pilot positions. This scope could be accomplished by setting some date in the future when Dash 8 flying could be reduced or when certain attrition occurs ie retirements, mainline furloughees returning to mainline.
2. Seniority: The mainline furloughees should be given seniority numbers as new hires. The only preference should be their mainline seniority in obtaining left or right seat in the RJs. They should receive no other preference for seniority with regards to any part of our current contract. This is imperative. Any seniority preference at Piedmont would be the equivalent of a “forced flow through agreement”. The Piedmont pilot group has been denied a flow through many times by mainline, and the mainline pilots should not get to enact such an agreement now just because they are faced with hard times.
3. Furloughs: If at anytime Piedmont is faced with furloughs, then the mainline furloughees would have to be released before any Piedmont pilot is released. It would also be a good idea to go ahead and add all current Piedmont pilots to the “no furlough list”. However, furloughs should not be an issue if seniority is worked out as stated above.
4. RJ Pay: Pay should be more than our current Dash 8 rates. However, I do not think at this time that we should fight for industry leading pay rates, but they should be competitive. This is an area where I think we can be flexible. We do have a formula already in place for RJs in our current contract and that may be a good place to start.
5. Working Agreement: Our current contract is amendable May 16, 2004. We should not make any amendment to our work rules before that. The RJs should come in on our current contract with no changes other than RJ pay rates. We can discuss contract terms in December of 2003 when we begin negotiations for our new contract. NOT BEFORE.
6. Voting: This is crucial in my opinion. I believe that any agreement should be ratified by our pilot group, not just our MEC. Any agreement that is arrived at could severely affect the future of the individuals that comprise this pilot group. Therefore everyone should get a vote on any agreement made. I understand that time is of the essence and things are moving fast, however we should not allow a handful of people to decide the fate of this entire pilot group. Setting time constraints and short deadlines is a negotiating tool and a trap that we should not fall into. Right now the ball is in our court and we should take our time think things through, discuss, and allow all the pilots an opportunity to weigh in by voting up or down on an agreement.
With all that said, and I may have missed something, I believe that if management cannot agree to the things I have said above then we should pass and let them move on to one of the other express carriers. The reason I say this is, if the items above cannot be agreed to in general then the deal management wants us to take is probably not good. If any of the items above are denied then it would leave big loopholes that would probably end up negatively some if not all the Piedmont pilots.
I appreciate your interest in our opinions and feelings regarding the RJ issues. I wish you all the best of luck in your talks with management and leave you to hammer out the details.

 

[charterpuke]

Patomic Air

Patomac Air was not the airline that was to have come out of the UAL/USAir merger. It was called DCAir.

 

[FR8mastr]

Charterpuke, Patomac was the regional airline allready in place to feed the proposed DC Air. They took PDT dashes to do this, they also took PDT and ALG routes to fly them. This was a non ALPA carrier being handed routes by US GROUP. Under threat of lawsuites from Alpa US Group relented and disbanded Patomic. Until now it has risen again.