Potential Violation and ASAP/NASA Forms

[ikillbigfoot]

I know someone who was involved with a navigation deviation a few days ago and blew threw their course on a STAR thus causing a TCAS TA (only). He is an FO and he was the pilot flying. He filled out an ASAP in the required 24 hrs and has also sent in a NASA report. The TRACON asked to have the crew call in. The result is the CAPT is getting a violation and he (FO) hasn't been called yet by anyone including the chief pilot (who said he knows), the FAA or TRACON. He's on probation with a regional. What do you think will most likely happen to him (ie worst-best) and and how soon after the incident? Apparently as of now the TRACON wants the Capt's butt.

 

[Way2Broke]

I hate it when my "friends" do something. I'd say he will eventually get a call from the Feds. If not, he is the luckiest man alive.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

The NASA report will give the reporter immunity from FAA certificate action only. It will not give immunity from a violation on the reporter’s FAA record and of course will do nothing for the pilot’s status with his airline.

Personally, I think that the company will not take any action unless there is a real history of mistakes, sick calls and other problems.

 

[Way2Broke]

A NASA report doesnot protect a pilot from all violations.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

A NASA report doesnot protect a pilot from all violations.

The above statement is true but in the case of blowing a SID or a STAR the NASA report should do to the job unless of course there was some kind or gross negligence or the NASA report had already been used before to save the reporter in a prior violation.

 

[rspilot]

I know people..including myself that have comitted far worse and by owning up to my mistake and explaining what I learned and how i will prevent it from happening again the faa took no action other than a mark in my file and my company just put me on suspension for one week. Your friend should be fine. Remember, just because something has happened once doesnt make you a bad pilot as long as you understand your mistake and learn to be more cautious.

 

[rickair7777]

The NASA form will probably protect him from certificate action in this case becuase the violation was unintentional, non-criminal and did not result in damage or injury.

He is still subject to the investigation and having a violation on his record, but he will probably not lose his ticket.

In 121 they essentially always go after both pilots if possible. It's always the captain's fault period, and usually the FO's fault too. The only exception might be a bad landing by the captain where the FO didn't have time to intervene (or was ignored), a situation where the FO aggressively warned the captain (and was ignored), or a ground collision on the LEFT side, out of view of the FO.

Since he is unlikely to lose his ticket, the airline will probably keep him, assuming he doesn't have a history. He can probably expect to get sent back to the sim for PC in the near future...

 

[SEVEN]

If that airline does have the ASAP program he should have filled one out anyway. Even though the FO screwed up, it is a 2 crew airplane and the Captain is still PIC. If he did get violated, it's because he didn't fill out the ASAP form. The worst that can happen to you if you do an ASAP is Corrective Action or a Letter of Warning from the FAA. They are only on the FAA's database (i.e. only the FAA knows and has access to the information)and are kept for 2 years before they fall off your certificate.

 

[Way2Broke]

The above statement is true but in the case of blowing a SID or a STAR the NASA report should do to the job unless of course there was some kind or gross negligence or the NASA report had already been used before to save the reporter in a prior violation.

I agree, but the Feds have been known to pick some random battles. It alldepends on how pissed the TRACON was.

 

[ElCid88]

My understanding is that the NASA forms will protect you from not having your license suspended, but not the violation itself. You can still get a violation after filling out the NASA form. A lot of this will depend on the FAA Inspector who is doing the investigation. Lately both crew members have been investigated regardless of who was flying. I also had a "friend" who went through something like this back in December. After the FAA Inspector looked at the radar tapes, and listened to ATC tapes, he determined that I, I mean my "friend", did exactly what ATC had told "him" to do, and he dropped it. He was actually pretty good about the whole thing, but he was a retired airline pilot with the "big picture". I hope this works out for the guys involved. I also recommend the AOPA legal plan. It is very good, and if you don't have a union rep. who can go to bat for you, AOPA will provide counsil for you. It took my, I mean my friend's experience, to convince me of this.

 

[Way2Broke]

A NASA report does NOT protect you from a license suspension. However, it certainly lessons the blow of any suspension that they hand down.

 

[rickair7777]

A NASA report does NOT protect you from a license suspension. However, it certainly lessons the blow of any suspension that they hand down.

It does protect you from revocation or suspension, but not from the violation...however they may save their time and energy and let you off with a warning rather than pursue a violation that has an associated NASA form.

 

[ikillbigfoot]

From what I heard from the ALPA lawyer, she said as long as it wasn't intentional, and you fess up and fill out the NASA and ASAP. It will be immune. It is kind of a free 'get me outta jail card' that is only allowed to be utilized once per five years. The deviation was over a VOR on the arrival and the aicraft deviated about 5.3 miles left of course causing a TCAS TA (only). Controller was female and she seemed to busy to get bent out of shape.

 

[Way2Broke]

I have a freind that recieved a 30 day suspension for clipping a presidential TFR by half a mile while doing survey work. She filed a NASA report the next morning. The Feds did drop the careless and wreckless, but stuck to the Airspace violation. So I know for a fact that it does NOT. If the Feds determine that you where "grossly negligent" then you are screwed. In your friends case I would say with a great amount of confidence that this will not happen.

 

[rickair7777]

I have a freind that recieved a 30 day suspension for clipping a TFR by half a mile. She filed a NASA report the next morning. The Feds did drop the careless and wreckless, but stuck to the Airspace violation. So I know for a fact that it does NOT. If the Feds determine that you where grossly neglangent then you are screwed. In your friends case I would say with a great amount of confidence that this will not happen.

Go Here: http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/immunity_nf.htm
Read paragraph 9c

The situation being discussed on this thread is clearly accidental.

In the case of a TFR bust, I suspect that cause of the violation was NOT accidental...your friend probably told them she "didn't know about the TFR"...OOPS. Not knowing about a NOTAM is indicative of failure to get an appropriate departure briefing, an FAR required item. This would be considered not accidental in that she had plenty of time to think about and remember...so they ASSUME that she intentially left without the brief, fully aware that she was blowing it off.

If she had told them that she knew about the TFR, set up a VOR to avoid it, but screwed up the VOR frq...THAT might have been accidental...

Departing with known maintenance discrepencies is also considered not accidental.

 

[Way2Broke]

For more information on NASA reports you can refer to this AC. Sorry for highjacking the thread.

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/immunity_nf.htm

Edit: You beat me too it. I'm not quite sure the details of what she did or did not tell the investigator. I'm not at liberty to put words in her mouth. THe only point that I was trying to make is that it is not always true that filing a NASA report will protect your license. She went on to have a sucessful aviation career, but it still comes up on interviews. I think the saving grace was that she was very low time and she is not afraid to talk about it.

 

[Guitar rocker]

I know someone who went through the exact same thing about 4 months ago. It was a 91 flight and they blew right through the course. FO was flying it at the time. They were told to call the TRACON which they did. The controller said that there would be no action taken but later the PIC received a letter in the mail that he was under investigation. FO filled out a NASA form but PIC didnt care at all about doing the same m(he was an owner/operator). End result was that nothing happened to the FO and they did some re-training for the captain. He did not get a violation but got a little black mark. The fed involved was more than lenient.

 

[rickair7777]

For more information on NASA reports you can refer to this AC. Sorry for highjacking the thread.

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/immunity_nf.htm

Edit: You beat me too it. I'm not quite sure the details of what she did or did not tell the investigator. I'm not at liberty to put words in her mouth. THe only point that I was trying to make is that it is not always true that filing a NASA report will protect your license. She went on to have a sucessful aviation career, but it still comes up on interviews. I think the saving grace was that she was very low time and she is not afraid to talk about it.

I think what catches people is the "unintentional" aspect of the violation. If you depart the airport without having done something you should have (such as verify Wx or airworthiness) they seem to consider that intentional negligence.

 

[Ralgha]

Seems that some of you are confusing NASA and ASAP. They're two totally different programs, and ASAP is much better than NASA in protecting the pilot, but still only if you fill it out. Apparently the FO filled out an ASAP report, so as someone already said, not all that much will happen to him in all likelyhood. Apparently the captain didn't fill one out, so all the fit that hit the shan is going to land on him.

 

[Axel]

Moral of the story:

When in doubt, fill one out.