Poll..."How Much Frost?"

[FN FAL]

How much frost coverage would need on your plane before you'd call for the deice truck prior to departure?

Assume OAT 19F, the sky is clear, and the sun is just about to rise. There is frost on the windshield and the fuel tanks have 100% coverage in any case below except 0%. Also assume you don't pay for the deice and neither does your employer. The company that contracts yours has a huge truck sitting on the ramp, just waiting to be started and warmed up and an employee to operate it handy. Also assume Signature is running around de-icing the toy jet airliners and regional t-props and that big Northwest Boeing that just taxied out of his parking spot, left a big pink wet spot...how much frost coverage would you need to make the call?

1. 100%
2. 75%
3. 65%
4. 50%
5. 25%
6. 10%
7. 5%
8. 2.5%
9. None...no frost coverage except on windshield and the fuel tanks.

 

[atrdriver]

I'm probably a wus, but if it has any frost on it I'm getting it removed before I go flying.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

I'm with him.

 

[nosehair]

"...it depends..."

 

[STL717]

Any frost, ice, snow, etc, must be removed before takeoff!!!

 

[STL717]

http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2004/041229.htm

According to.wind tunnel data, a wing upper surface roughness caused by particles of only 1-2 mm [millimeter] diameter [the size of a grain of table salt], at a density of about one particle per square centimeter, can cause lift losses.of about 22 and 33 percent, in ground effect and free air, respectively.

The bottom line is that pilots should be aware that no amount of snow, ice or frost accumulation on the wing upper surface can be considered safe for takeoff.

 

[HAZ-MAT]

If I can't "polish smooth" my windshield, then I need a de-ice.

 

[rumpletumbler]

I would have the plane de-fueled and then the fuel heated and retured to the tanks..."voila" and then I would have the lineman blow on the winshield until it was clear. Then after breaking in front of everyone at the coffee machine I would flip a quarter to the linemen and say "Thanks big hoss" while simultaneously giving the counter girl a wink on my way out. Before bursting into the sunshine I pause at the door and fix my hair in the reflection, not noticing the three other guys behind me with bags in their hands. A little chap stick applied I cannot help but kiss my reflection and then I am off.

 

[Deerkiller]

always de-ice no matter how big or small the amount...if i can see even a little bit on the wings then I always assume that there is the same amount if not more on the T-tail. Call me a wus but whatever the cost of spraying us down is, it's worth it. Besides the rampers waste more than they use most of the time, so why not. There's only so many factors in aviation that we can control, and taking off with a clean wing is one of them.

 

[mooser]

http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2004/041229.htm

According to.wind tunnel data, a wing upper surface roughness caused by particles of only 1-2 mm [millimeter] diameter [the size of a grain of table salt], at a density of about one particle per square centimeter, can cause lift losses.of about 22 and 33 percent, in ground effect and free air, respectively.

The bottom line is that pilots should be aware that no amount of snow, ice or frost accumulation on the wing upper surface can be considered safe for takeoff.

aggreed!!!

Mooser

 

[bafanguy]

Parts 135 & 121 are pretty clear about this if you're operating under them. However, it's the laws of physics that I'd be more concerned about. Fuel warming may get rid of frost over the fuel tanks, but there are a few critical areas NOT over the tanks...ailerons, spoiler panels, slats, control/trim tabs, elevators/horizontal stab.


How much is too much ? Dunno, and neither does anyone else as he sits on the ramp trying to answer that question. Some frost is grainier than other frost. If one tries to apply is own "opinion" as fact, he then becomes a test pilot with pax on board.

The only thing one knows for sure is that it'll fly with NO frost. Some chances just aren't worth taking.

 

[TurboS7]

Depending on how much but with the amount you say she will fly, especially if you have a high lift wing. The amount of lift is increased by the density of the air. If I were in a small airplane I would polish the leading edge smooth and go fly. I hear all the politically correct answers but that is just rubbish. BTW the crash at DCA with Air Florida resulted in the captain not applying maximum thrust, the 737 would have flown with maximim avialiable applied thrust. But I guess only rich boys fly now days so spend that extra $500.00 on a deice. Cheers.

 

[yzf6]

But I guess only rich boys fly now days so spend that extra $500.00 on a deice. Cheers.

Or $4,000 removing that half inch of freezing rain, but what's a few extra pounds of ice gonna hurt..

 

[Dangerkitty]

But I guess only rich boys fly now days so spend that extra $500.00 on a deice. Cheers.

$500 might get you about one half of a wing deiced. When I have been deiced in the Lear it usually averages between $2,000 and $4,000.

 

[Diesel]

0 frost

 

[FN FAL]

If I can't "polish smooth" my windshield, then I need a de-ice.

Hahaha...good one.

 

[TIGV]

Delay the flight till the sun does it's work or de-ice the pr!ck, it aint costing you a dime, bottom line: "No ice frost or snow adhering to any part of the plane."

 

[TurboS7]

None of you guys would have survived in my era.

 

[TIGV]

Or would we have?.............

 

[TurboS7]

All been fired so you wouldn't have to worry about flying.

 

[rumpletumbler]

None of you guys would have survived in my era.

I would have. I believe I made the right choice.

 

[TIGV]

Hmmmm so did I unless we would have got fired for deicing a plane back then, clarify Turbo....

 

[TurboS7]

For deicing a small aircraft for frost, yessir, any operator that I know of would have walked you out the door.

 

[Singlecoil]

Delay the flight till the sun does it's work or de-ice the pr!ck, it aint costing you a dime, bottom line: "No ice frost or snow adhering to any part of the plane."

Well that isn't very realistic.

Piston Cessna: Polish it smooth

Boeing product: Clean upper wing surface and control surfaces. Up to 1/8th of an inch (the thickness of a nickel) under the wing is OK, as is contamination on the fuselage.

 

[TIGV]

Aah good, I was beginning to wonder, heck the MU-Deuce doesn't fly so well on a clear day, shudder to think what would happen on one motor with some frost on!!!!

 

[rumpletumbler]

For deicing a small aircraft for frost, yessir, any operator that I know of would have walked you out the door.

Did they think that allah would take care of the ice?

 

[TIGV]

Hmmmm

How much frost coverage would need on your plane before you'd call for the deice truck prior to departure?

Assume OAT 19F, the sky is clear, and the sun is just about to rise. There is frost on the windshield and the fuel tanks have 100% coverage in any case below except 0%. Also assume you don't pay for the deice and neither does your employer.

He did say the sun was coming up, with no de-ice or not willing to de-ice I would say waiting on the orange ball is the next best option and quite realistic, failing that I recommended he de-ice because, as he says, neither he nor his employer are paying for it, doesn't mention Boeing anywhere does it?

 

[TurboS7]

Deice fluid actually destroys the lift of a wing as much as 10%, we use it because we do not have anything better. In effect everytime you takeoff with deice fluid you are a test pilot. Hence the requirement to use max thrust.

 

[PCL_128]

None of you guys would have survived in my era.

I'm not exactly upset that I don't meet the expectations of a SCAB.

 

[Lead Sled]

Here's a little trick that I picked up from some Canadians several years ago...

They carried a couple of aerosol cans of windshield deicing fluid that you can buy in any auto parts store. The stuff is basically the same stuff they squirt on your airplane to deice it. It does a number on the ice/frost without damaging the paint.

'Sled