Poll..."How Much Frost?"

[rumpletumbler]

Or if you drank a lot the night before you could just vomit on the plane and then hose it off.

 

[TIGV]

I'm not exactly upset that I don't meet the expectations of a SCAB.

Grow some hair on your chest and nuts before you post such drivel, and change your avatar, noone owes you squat.

 

[rumpletumbler]

I'm not exactly upset that I don't meet the expectations of a SCAB.

You've never met the guy and you judge him? The best pilot I've ever flown with by a huge margin was an eastern scab. He was/is a really good pilot. Leagues above anyone I've seen in the cockpit before or since. His initials are RH. If anyone else knows who I'm talking about they know he is a cool guy.

 

[PCL_128]

You've never met the guy and you judge him?

I don't need to meet a SCAB to know he is scum. Turbo has admitted on this board many times that he is a SCAB. That's all I need to know.

TIGV, what does hating the RJDC have to do with being owed anything?

 

[TurboS7]

That's OK I see he flies a CL-65 based on all data he must use deice fluid on that thing or it will not fly with anything adhering to the wing.

 

[TurboS7]

In the 60's and 70's using deice fluid on GA aircraft was unheard off. Frost you just sanded it down with your glove and went your merry way. If the airplane had ice on it you put it in a hangar or just chipped away. Just recently myself and a mechanic totally deiced by hand a 737 that had 2 inches of ice on it. We just chipped away with plastic scrapers and 6 hours later we had a totally clean airplane. Sometimes that is just what it takes to move the metal. Of course only a SCAB would do such a thing.

 

[mar]

Where's my broom?

None of you guys would have survived in my era.

Not to pat myself on the back or anything...
...but I believe Singlecoil and myself would've produced on time departures with nothing more than a broom.

I've flown the Caravan and swept and swept and swept until I was convinced that overloaded pig would make it off.

Deice fluid? That used to be a luxury left only for the worst days of icing, not the usual morning frost. And even then it was cold. Heated deicing fluid was unheard of where I used to work.

God I sound like I'm 70 years old.

Deiced by hand, dern it, and we were HAPPY to do it too!

 

[TurboS7]

Yup, your right, you would look at me and say what a woossssuuuhhhh. The best thing in Alaska for GA are the wing covers, a pain to put on but they sure save a lot of work early in the morning. You would have done just fine "in my era."

 

[bafanguy]

Wow...13 hours, 36 minutes from asking a deice question to the first hurling of a scab insult. What took so long ?
TurboS7,

From what I was taught, deice fluid is shed by airflow leaving a pretty much clean wing at rotation ( speaking of jet acft ). The idea being that the fluid carried the contamination with it. In fact, I've seen some training films showing flight testing which indicated that. Where did the 10% figure come from ? I've not heard that before.

I've always had the feeling that a lot of the deice data was in the "measure it with a micrometer, mark it with a grease pencil, cut it with an axe" category. Operating an airplane isn't a science experiment so one can't always control variables. But, there's not much else to go on.

Winter can just be a bad time for flying airplanes.

 

[TurboS7]

Type IV is the culprit, great stuff but the viscocity it a lot thicker. The 10% came off the top of my head to prove a point. I read an article in Professional Pilot that gave a figure of 8 to 12 % for Type IV. If you do some research you will find it. The idea is yes at the time of rotation most has blown off but basically we are still in a test pilot mode.

 

[bafanguy]

Turbo,

Got to agree with a certain aspect of the "test pilot" thing for the reasons I mentioned previously re winter ops. But, Type IV was always my fluid of choice when they had it ( all stations didn't ) because of the longer hold-over times.

The degradation of lift due to fluid is totally new to me. I'll look around for the info. Thanks.

 

[MTpilot]

Too cool for ice

I would have the plane de-fueled and then the fuel heated and retured to the tanks..."voila" and then I would have the lineman blow on the winshield until it was clear. Then after breaking in front of everyone at the coffee machine I would flip a quarter to the linemen and say "Thanks big hoss" while simultaneously giving the counter girl a wink on my way out. Before bursting into the sunshine I pause at the door and fix my hair in the reflection, not noticing the three other guys behind me with bags in their hands. A little chap stick applied I cannot help but kiss my reflection and then I am off.

Same as above.

 

[TurboS7]

Type IV is the fluid to use as long as you are not paying the bill great holdover times. The reason you can't use reduced thrust for takeoff is because of the "contamination" of the deicing fluid.

 

[FN FAL]

Type IV is the fluid to use as long as you are not paying the bill great holdover times. The reason you can't use reduced thrust for takeoff is because of the "contamination" of the deicing fluid.

That's another part of the "rest of the story" I can't tell on this board...as much as I would love to.

I have been cussing at the walls for two days...I'm just glad I didn't have a stuck mike on Wednesday. And that's all I got to say about that.

 

[JAFI]

As I recall, most single engine and many light twin GA aircraft will not use type IV fluid because they are not certified for "Known Icing" so they do not worry about hold over time, they just do not go with frost on the wing (wasn't that the origional question?).

In the 70's I remember de-icing was when I walked out to the aircraft with buckets of hot water and a pump can of cheap automotive anti-freeze. I poured the hot water on the wing, then pumped a couple of squarts of anti-freeze to keep the water from freezing. It took a while but it worked. One problem was the water got on the brakes and froze them solid so trying to taxi was always "creative".

But back then I walked 5 miles thru waist deep snow up hill (both ways) to school each day. Had to kill whatever I could find for supper. But I digress......

(Humor, dry humor anyone?)
JAFI

 

[Vector4fun]

Heck, all that need happen is have any three of the board members stand under the wing and discus PFT or senority or age 60 or ALPA vs RJs or, or, or

And all the hot air would de-ice the plane in 30 minutes....

 

[JAFI]

Heck, all that need happen is have any three of the board members stand under the wing and discus PFT or senority or age 60 or ALPA vs RJs or, or, or

And all the hot air would de-ice the plane in 30 minutes....

Vector, I think you just solved the energy crisis and the hazmat problem for used de-ice fluid. Have you filed for a patent yet?

JAFI

 

[Ty Webb]

FWIW- for 91/135 guys, if it is clear (usually is on frosty mornings) call the FBO and have them tug you into the sunshine, if at all possible. Sometimes, the sun will do all the work, and by the time you show up and finish your preflight, you won't need to deice, and for the price of that phone call- and maybe a small tip- you just saved your company $500 bucks and a 20 minute delay.

 

[jetdriven]

Here's a little trick that I picked up from some Canadians several years ago...

They carried a couple of aerosol cans of windshield deicing fluid that you can buy in any auto parts store. The stuff is basically the same stuff they squirt on your airplane to deice it. It does a number on the ice/frost without damaging the paint.

'Sled

When I flew PA31's and 402's for freight the lemon pledge did real well on the deice boots. It worked almost as good as icex...

 

[FlyChicaga]

At our flight school, we used to use some type of alcohol in a spray bottle and then wipe off the frost with a towel or squeegie (sp). Of course we don't have that in the 121 world. The control surfaces are just out of reach. As I imagine they are in nearly all 91/135 jet aircraft (there are exceptions).

So, we deice. Yes, it costs money to do so, but honestly I'd rather take the conservative route in regards to the frost even if it's non-conservative financially. How can we put a cost on the safety of our passengers?

 

[enigma]

FN, your question is a little vague, but since you referenced "your" airplane, I'll answer for my airplane. I won't depart unless my wings/tail/control surfaces/etc, are completely clean. If that means shooting the fluid, we shoot the fluid.

I'm blessed to be committing aviation with one of Mr. Douglas's finest. I've got two honking JT8's, slats and fowlers. I could probably get by with a little frost, but I wouldn't try even if the regs allowed it.

If I were talking about my old Apache (wish I still had that airplane), I'll have to admit that I would wait til the sun melted the frost, or just polish it off. If it didn't polish easily, I'd have to sit it out.

In the past I worked for a Lear CP who would polish the wings. I'm ashamed to admit that I let him get by with doing so. Now, I know better, but I have to say that the airplane did quite well with polished frost on the wings. Not that I'd accept it now. Sometimes I wonder how I survived that operation. Thank the Lord for taking care fools like me.

enigma

 

[TurboS7]

If you had a straight wing Lear frost is a no, no on that wing. That is not a high lift wing but a high performance one. Your old Douglas will go as long as it has the slats until the FAA inspector sitting on Row 9A writes you up. The it is fun and games, guess you could always say the sunny side was clear, don't know what side you were looking at.

 

[gear_guy]

Why not pull it into the hangarfor about 30 min? It is a heck of a lot cheaper than deicing and you could still have the airplane ready for your departure. Also if you do need to deice, use Type I. Type I removes the frost. Type IV keeps new stuff from accumulating. If the sun is coming up, you won't have to worry about that. BTW, nobody has mentioned that all of your aircraft data is null and void with any frost on the wing. How do you know your balanced field can still be met? Frankly, some of your answers are scaring me. I hate flying the airlines. You pay $800 a ticket and expect they will do whatever it takes to get you there safely. As a passenger, I really don't want to hear about saving money when it comes to my life. You guys will go on strike for a $2/hour raise, yet worry about a $500 deice that could save the lives and aircraft. Go figure!

 

[EMB170Pilot]

While Flight Instructing, Had a mechanic use Lemon Pledge to clean the windsheild...As mentioned earlier..what was so good about lemon pledge????????

 

[TurboS7]

Remember we are talking about a C-172 or a C-206 getting frost early in the morning, not a 737 or MD-83.

 

[FN FAL]

Remember we are talking about a C-172 or a C-206 getting frost early in the morning, not a 737 or MD-83.

I'll have to find that page in my ops manual...

 

[Corona]

I'll have to find that page in my ops manual...

The multi-million-dollar question: What would the accident report read?

The old-timers can wheeze on and on about how we didn't do this in the old days, but modern FAA enforcement doesn't live in the old days.

Also, are we talking about holdover times, or just frost/ice removal? Big difference. If I remember previous ops specs, you cannot use some deicing fluids on airplanes with VR less than 100kts or so. This is for reasons previously stated: The fluid is thick enough to disrupt the airflow of an airplane becoming airborne at a lower speed, just as much as frost/ice might.

When I flew air ambulance, we used a spray jug like what you'd use to spray Roundup in the garden, filled with a glycol solution, about 3 gallons or so. That, with an extra couple gallons, was only about 20 pounds extra weight, and would easily remove ice and frost from the entire airplane (Pt 23 twin turboprop). Actually, five gallons is enough to do a couple of those planes. Naturally, there was no holdover time, but it did the job. Can't say I'd like to try deicing a Boeing this way...

Hope this isn't entirely bogus,
C

 

[bafanguy]

GG,

Right. Type I will clean off the frost but do little to deal with any reformation. I've seen frost sprayed off about 45 mins prior to departure only to have it reform before we pushed. This didn't happen too often, but it did happen and had to be watched.

I would try to have it sprayed as close to departure as possible, but with several departures going at the same time, the deice crews got to you when they could.

The carwash near the departure runway is the only answer to all this deice stuff. Worked great in ATL.

 

[TurboS7]

Ban all aircraft from flying in the winter. That will solve all problems-you guys are all too much.

 

[mar]

Furniture wax

While Flight Instructing, Had a mechanic use Lemon Pledge to clean the windsheild...As mentioned earlier..what was so good about lemon pledge????????

Pledge is great because it's basically a cheap wax. You could spend five times as much for IceX or something else but Pledge puts a nice coat of wax on the windscreen to help repel water so your visibility is better.

It also makes the bugs easier to remove.