Politically Incorrect Statement from a Regional Guy

[enuffalready]

As regional pilot I am in no way implying that pay/qualification is the reason for the crash but is does stir an interesting debate about pilot pay and the free market.

My fear is that as pilot pay and work rules continue to decline, more and more qualifed people will look eslewhere for employment. Military guys with distinquished careers and top of the line training are opting more and more to either stay active duty, fly reserves or just plain get out of aviation. Civilian guys with great training and many many years of 121 flying who have any other options are getting out of flying. Senior guys with the most experince are retiring earlier and getting out of flying. I think you would be kidding yourself if you didn't think that we are currently experiencing and over the next 10 years will experience a huge drain on QUALIFIED pilots. Of course the free market will supply us plenty of pilots, but in just my 6 short years in this industry I have seen a sharp decline in capability. Let's face it, whether you are DELTA, mesa, jetblue or whoever, most guys with any capabilities to earn a good income are going to either leave the industry or not get in to begin with. What does that leave us? A ton of underqualified people responsibile for a lot of lives.

Who is to blame? Manament? I don;t think so... I think the blame is primarily the passengers themselves. They drive the market, they drive the price and they are going to ultimately get what they pay for. Managment simply reacts to market conditions.. Could someone start an airline and say all oru guys have 10,000 hours of experince and charge more? Sure, for about 6 months and then people woldl get right back on hotwire, priceline, etc and get that $69 one way to LA from DC and ExperinceAIr would be out of business.

Fortunatly for me, I have outside income and am getting out of aviation. The rewards of flying no longer outweigh the costs and it is my time to leave. My neighbor, a NW captain has gone from 300k to 160k and is doing everything he can to get out. Those that I know that are still in that have other options are pursuing them with vigor....

The media is making a big deal out of this controller having only 2 hours sleep. If the public only knew how many 23yo kids are flying them in and out of uncontrolled fields with that kind of sleep on a regular basis they would go nuts... if alpa was smart they would magnify this... but they won't

Where will we be in 5-10 years. More planes, less pay, less experienced pilots flying...

 

[big_al]

you can blame management for raking in the cash while turning around and complaining about "high" worker pay. You can blame them for their MBA bean counter executives who know nothing about cost savings unless it involves slashing worker benefits and compensation.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Well written enuff and largely on the mark. Medicine used to attract the best and the brightest but now lawsuits, insurance companies, and government agencies have driven people with medical aptitude to other fields that offer less bull and more cash. Aviation is certainly on that track. The operative statement here is definately "You get what you pay for."

 

[AnimalTale]

Dont worry! As the pay and benefits decline, the pool of qualified pilots decline. Therefore, airlines will not be able to hire qualified people. When this happens (hopefully soon), the pay and benefits increase (Supply and Demand to attract qualified people). After all it takes pilots to FLY an airplane and if airlines can not afford to pay pilots, the airline should not exist (cost of doing SAFE business).

Two negative things that can ruin us right now:
1) Too many eager pilots (Too much supply)
2) other countries bidding to do our flying (BUCK FUSH)----> Resembles the US shipping business

Solution--> Your job is worth more than you are led to believe.

CYA

 

[michael707767]

Dont worry! As the pay and benefits decline, the pool of qualified pilots decline. Therefore, airlines will not be able to hire qualified people. When this happens (hopefully soon), the pay and benefits increase (Supply and Demand to attract qualified people).

pay and benefits will not get better if the pool of qualified pilots drops. As long as they can get warm bodies with minimal qualifications to apply, the airlines will think they are paying enough. The only thing that would change that is if the accident rate starts to go up to unacceptable levels.

I agree with the point though, the lower compensation of the industry will mean many of the sharper people in this country will no longer consider becoming a pilot. I know I wouldn't. Too many other things pay more and you are home every night. Heck, I would even take less money to be home everynight.

Some great people will go into the airline business because they have a love of flying, sure. But the quality of people who become pilots will decline.

The really smart people who have a love of flying will do something else.......and buy an airplane to fly on weekends.

 

[climbhappy]

i cannot see how the passengers are to blame. magt has always reluctant to raise prices because prices because nobody would follow.

there was a great article in the wall st journal a year ago that said, "it takes a long time to put an airline out of business.

I think the creditors, not the passengers are to blame. they are too willing to bend over and change the terms. its a highly capital intensive business so i understand why.

also, the fed in giving all these loans after 9/11. let the inefficient and the bloated cease to perish. the market forces will set the price based on demand.

so, in short, it is all one big clusterf$%k

 

[scoreboard]

You are diluded in thinking passengers or demand drive our pay. Its management. GE, Airbus, Boeing, et al that back up bankrupt entities allowing them to undercharge what it cost to operate, hence, you get paid less. Not the passenger, not the LCC.

 

[AnimalTale]

You are diluded in thinking passengers or demand drive our pay.

Maybe you are right. But please explain, if there is a pilot shortage and the airlines are having a hard time hiring pilots, Will MNGMT have to dangle the carrott (increased pay&benefit and better culture)to attract new pilots to that airline? or is there another way to get new pilots?

Why do u think the regionals pay their FOs 19 bucks an hour? Because there is a huge supply of "NEW" eager pilots begging to fly for the airlines.

In fact back when the BIG boyz where hiring in the 90s, Frontier was having problems keeping pilots. So F9 mngmt increased newhire pay and all the pay across the board to keep our existing pilots and attract new pilots.

Also, look back in the late 90s, why did some SWA pilots jump ship to airlines like UAL and AA? I think because of higher pay,pension and benefits. NOT THE CASE ANYMORE!

So I think SUPPLY AND DEMAND is also a big issue in our pay in the airline industry.

Cya

 

[Huck]

Medicine used to attract the best and the brightest

Amen. The only good doctor I can find around here is a recent immigrant from the Ukraine (she's easy on the eyes too....)

All hail the global market. Hope the A380 screens we're getting have a Mandarin switch for when they go to Fedex China.

 

[Formula 1]

This is an intereasting debate. As fuel costs increase, fewer people are going to be able to afford pilot training. This will cause a higher demand for military pilots and airlines will have to form thier own flight schools. To see the future of our industry, all we have to do is look to at the Asian and European airlines and their schools here in the US.

 

[CX880]

It's already happening at the entry level, there's a huge drop of people looking to start flight training. Since 2004 there's a drop of about 25%. Of course this is for all pilots including the weekend warriors, so the drop of pro pilot training will be a lesser percentage but still significant. it won't be long before we see the domino effect at the majors.

 

[Pilotbob3]

i don't see what is so Politically Incorrect about this.......

 

[737 Pylt]

i don't see what is so Politically Incorrect about this.......

You must have missed the 12 page thread that had GL banned, a moderator resigned, then banned, and a whole lotta of STFU & name calling! It was one for the books!
737

 

[pkober]

Enuff,

I hope your new career isn't consumer based. You can't blame the passengers for airline problems. Bad management is the problem. The paxs will go where to the cheapest fare. I'm sure you do that with other things in life. When you get gas for your car do you go to the most expensive station or the cheapest? If the executives decide the price and it's too low, then that is mamagements fault. Unfortunately we are the ones that pay with pay cuts.

As far as ALPA fixing the sleep issue. Ha ! I remember this discusion after the AA accident in LIT. All the talk was about duty days. I haven't seen any real change since then and probably won't in the future. Worthless will talk about it until something else comes up and than that's it.

Good luck in your new career.

CLAMABKE

 

[Lake Alice]

A few weeks ago a senior exec at Flight Safety International was quoted as saying they are seriously looking into closing their Vero Beach flight school. The amount of pilots enrolling is significantly down and the price to learn to fly has skyrocketed.

As for pay and benefits I do not know is they will increase significantly but hopefully they will not decline further.

 

[pilotyip]

Drop Out rate = shortage acceleration

All this points to exactly what has been advocated by many, reduce the number of pilots and cause the wages to raise to fill the seats, sounds pretty simple. This drop out rate combined with recalls at NWA, DAL, UAL, and soon AAL will accelerate the skill level shortage, though not really a pilot shortage. The world wide pilot shortage is growing and those who elect to stick it out will benefit. All ties into the 2007 hiring boom . BTW I am teaching my grandson to fly and I believe he a has a great shot at a fulfilling career.

 

[Purpled]

YIP,

I can't wait till the boom next year; I'll finally be able to jump-ship to a real airline.

Hope your teaching you grandson to beg too. It might come in handy.

 

[pkober]

All this points to exactly what has been advocated by many, reduce the number of pilots and cause the wages to raise to fill the seats, sounds pretty simple. This drop out rate combined with recalls at NWA, DAL, UAL, and soon AAL will accelerate the skill level shortage, though not really a pilot shortage. The world wide pilot shortage is growing and those who elect to stick it out will benefit. All ties into the 2007 hiring boom . BTW I am teaching my grandson to fly and I believe he a has a great shot at a fulfilling career.

WTFO !!! Dude pass the pipe. This thread about AAL recalling has been discussed toooooooo many times.

As far as teaching the youngens to fly, I think it's a great idea. This career has life left in it. It's what you make of it. It's still better than working for a living, as long as you can keep your job.

 

[El Pobre]

Gents,

Take the pipe away from Yip!!!

By the time his grandson is old enough to be flying and have a carreer doing this...there won't be any pilots around. With the advent of UAV's and with the speed that technology evolves...I think that a 25-30 year old today is the end of the last generation of professional pilots. I just hope that it lasts long enough for me to retire.

 

[jumppilot]

For some strange reason, I actually think Yip makes sense.

 

[HighSpeedClimb]

Lets face it, we all love to fly..period..That's why we stay in this business year after year taking it up the @ss. Qualified pilots will always be available as long as flying planes is satisfying and fun. So if the airlines continue to pay around $35/hr to start and no more than $50 second year ie..Champion, Miami Air, Spirit, Allegient, JetBlue and even UAL and USAir, they will not only get applicants, but qualified applicants. If you convince pilots to not take lower paying jobs from these airlines, the companies will get foreigner's to do it.

 

[regionaltard]

You are diluded in thinking passengers or demand drive our pay. Its management. GE, Airbus, Boeing, et al that back up bankrupt entities allowing them to undercharge what it cost to operate, hence, you get paid less. Not the passenger, not the LCC.

You are correct. The airlines are merely the funnel through which consumers' cash flows into the "airline industry:" manufacturers, leasing companies, vendors, oil companies etc. These entities are similar to unions; they've merely done a far better job of representing parts, airframes, powerplants and fuel farms than actual labor unions have done representing pilots. The airline industry is doing great; we're the weak links, so we get screwed.

 

[Huck]

By the time his grandson is old enough to be flying and have a carreer doing this...there won't be any pilots around. With the advent of UAV's and with the speed that technology evolves...

If the crew at the pointy end can line up on the wrong runway, imagine how often some gamer at a console somewhere will....

 

[Ty Webb]

Qualified pilots will always be available as long as flying planes is satisfying and fun.

This makes no sense. What we are talking about is the degradation of the job, so it only follows that at some point, the negatives (time away, security b.s., declining hotel quality, shorter turns, less work rules, less benefits) renders it no longer "fun and satisfying".

So if the airlines continue to pay around $35/hr to start and no more than $50 second year ie..Champion, Miami Air, Spirit, Allegient, JetBlue and even UAL and USAir, they will not only get applicants, but qualified applicants. If you convince pilots to not take lower paying jobs from these airlines, the companies will get foreigner's to do it.

Not true. The last contract at AirTran (2001) which represented a significant improvement, was only reached because of the attrition caused by pilots leaving . . . the upgrade on the DC9 was down to 11 months, and management knew that if they wanted to grow at 20% ASM they were going to have to put forth a viable contract in order to attract and keep future captains.

I suspect that attrition will be what drives our next contract, too.


.

 

[Gorilla]

Lets face it, we all love to fly..period..That's why we stay in this business year after year taking it up the @ss.

I'm not denying a lot of people love to fly. I think there's a growing subset, though, that doesn't, but their other marketable skill sets have withered. Flying is now a paycheck alone, with little stimulation or reward, and hard/long days to boot.

Now it's time for the chorus of eager beavers to chime "Then get the heck out of MY seat you old %^&**(^) !! :laugh:

If work was fun, you'd do it for free.

 

[Ty Webb]

You must have missed the 12 page thread that had GL banned, a moderator resigned, then banned, and a whole lotta of STFU & name calling! It was one for the books!
737

Kee-rist! Where was I that day? I wondered what happened to the General. Got a link to it?

.

 

[fam62c]

Pilot shortage....never.

I fly for a small regional that I would think would be the last choice for new pilots coming into the industry. I look at the industry and career progression as it is today coupled with the huge cost increases of learning to fly and it really makes me wonder. At what point will people figure out that it's just not worth it anymore? If they paid new accountants, nurses or whatever the wages we pay new airline pilots and asked them to be gone 12-15 nights a month nobody would do the job. Flying seems to be the one profession that new people will pay a mint to enter regardless of wages, career progression and quality of life. The people who "sell" the profession to young people seem to be doing a fantastic marketing job.

Our profession has a reputation from the "golden years" as being a great career because of three things: high pay, lots of time off, and great retirement benefits. There are still some airline jobs with these advanatges but they are few and far between. The reality for most airline pilots today will be much different than it was years ago. Many of us will work much harder for far less money with much less job security for a larger percentage of our careers than those who came before us. The unions have been tamed through bankruptcy, shifting of work and governmental protection of corporate interests and it will be years before any of the leverage we once enjoyed will return.

All I know is that my airline has never had a problem finding pilots. We have high turnover as new FO's gain experience and move to other regionals but we have always had that. The company will simply hire people with lower and lower experience levels but they will not run out of applicants. The company and the flying public could care less about the experience level of the pilots in the front of the plane as long as it's legal. I'll bet we still have 10-20 applicants for every position and we are very near the bottom of the industry in terms of pay, QOL and career progression opportunity for new-hires. I would love nothing better than to see a severe and lengthy pilot shortage that would but the supply-demand equation on the side of labor for once but I don't hold my breath. I can't for the life of me figure out what draws new FO's into the business and keeps them here. The fact that people "love to fly" seems to override other concerns such as making a living as far as I can tell.

I've always wondered why ALPA doesn't do more educational PR in an attempt to combat the false marketing campaigns of flight schools and universities. Maybe if more high school and college kids understood the realities of the career progression track, wages and lifestyle they would think twice before incurring massive student debt to enter a career where the payback takes forever. I think most of these kids don't really have any idea what they are getting into. If we could work at controlling the supply of new pilots it would help all of us.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

You are diluded in thinking passengers or demand drive our pay. Its management. GE, Airbus, Boeing, et al that back up bankrupt entities allowing them to undercharge what it cost to operate, hence, you get paid less. Not the passenger, not the LCC.

Absolutely on the mark. The allowance of bankrupt carriers to operate for 3 years (UAUA) in bankruptcy decimated the ability of existing carriers to compete on an even playing field. I flew on TED for $79 round trip last year ORD-MCO in December. How do compete against that?

 

[jumppilot]

Maybe if more high school and college kids understood the realities of the career progression track, wages and lifestyle they would think twice before incurring massive student debt to enter a career where the payback takes forever. I think most of these kids don't really have any idea what they are getting into.

You're right, most don't have any idea what they are getting into. However, when I was in college, it was long nights drinking and long days instructing. That was the life and we all knew the airlines were the next step.

In other words, it is all my friends and I wanted to do. That is the problem. What else interests someone who only loves to fly? Why would I, as a college student, study finance when I have absolutely no interest in it.

Face it, flying kicks ass. The career sucks. There is no middle ground for someone who loves flying. We are almost forced into this job and once we get here we say, "oh s*it."

 

[Scrapdog]

You're right, most don't have any idea what they are getting into. However, when I was in college, it was long nights drinking and long days instructing. That was the life and we all knew the airlines were the next step.

In other words, it is all my friends and I wanted to do. That is the problem. What else interests someone who only loves to fly? Why would I, as a college student, study finance when I have absolutely no interest in it.

Face it, flying kicks ass. The career sucks. There is no middle ground for someone who loves flying. We are almost forced into this job and once we get here we say, "oh s*it."

You don't have to fly a fatty in the airlines right out of college. Umm...oh yeah, that thing called the military has plenty of aircraft from fatties, fighters, and helo's. I started flying in the military out of college, and about 95% of my other peers did as well. If you love flying, flying jets in the air force is probably a tad more exciting than flying in the airlines (just from what I've heard of course). I haven't had the oppurtunity yet to enjoy the extreme thrill of shoving the throttles forward on an RJ.

Bottom line - there are tons of options for guys out of college to fly a variety of different aircraft and different career paths. Flying for an airline is just one of the plethora of options available if you set your mind to it. You certainly aren't forced to fly for the airlines right away...