POLAR vs. ATLAS

[furloughfodder]

B747-300,

You are a complete wacko. I find it hard to believe someone with such hatred and lack of integrity actually operates heavy machinery. I am done with this thread, you have proved over and over again how psycho you really are, and I am just glad you don't really represent the majority of Atlas pilots.

And as a parting gift, here again, back by popular demand, some of the greatest quotes from B747-300:

“A long period of unemployment might help you see things more clearly.”

“The two groups working together??? What a laugh.”

”As for the guy who honored the picket line at the training center, he'll be terminated. And I don't think there's an arbitrator in the world that would overturn his termination.”

“Here's the new Atlas motto:
WE DON'T CROSS PICKET LINES........WE GO AROUND THEM”

” On the Atlas side things are going great! The planes are very full (and on time) and most guys are earning above guarantee. What little support you have remaining will be gone when the pay hits the bank! Many of us are now secretly hoping you never come back.”

” You wont fly those planes (or any others) anywhere else because you'll always be remembered as the dufus who went on strike…”

”BTW, not one Atlas pilot has crossed a Polar picket line! Absolutely true. We have had alternate entrances established and we report for work at the standard time by avoiding the picket lines.”

” I hope you've got enough people to cover all the possible entry points onto the ramps at FAI and ANC. When faced with "Fly the flight or be disciplined", I don't think too many Atlas guys are going to stick their necks out for the likes of you.”

“The 30th is the day. Nearly 100 more crewmembers will be furloughed if Polar crews don't accept what's on the table by then. I think this will continue until there is no longer a Polar Air Cargo.”

“You will still be on strike through this peak season. And the next one. And the one after that. And.....”

“All of you will be out of a job and out of ALPA."

 

[bman]

Okay am I gonna have to seperate you two?!

Another Perspective,

You know I think these boards can be great source of information (somtimes) and a good place for discourse. This is why I frequent these boards and read the posts. Sometimes the odd thread gets heated and people start throwing out incendiary remarks and sometimes it gets personal. What people forget, I think, is that people actually read these boards. Many people use the information gained here (certainly not soley) to make very important career decisions about where they are gonna hang their hat. When I read the posts of Furloughfodder and 747-300 I feel like its some bad Fox News program with Ann Coulter and James Carvel lobbing A-bombs at one another.

Neither one of these guys posts anything that doesn't show a great deal of bias in favor of the group they are a part of.

Now I realize I have only been here @ 8 months (online for 6 of the eight), I do work at Atlas on the 400 and I don't have any "real airline experience" (what qualifies as real airline experience? Getting boned up the poop shot during nego or the odd merger? Please daddy tell me the story of all the gains your ALPA time has gotten you), but my bias don't run so deep. I should also mention that I was offered a Polar 400 slot one month earlier than my Atlas class, but turned it down, for several reasons (not the least of which was less than 10 days notice for my previous employer). Hell to be honest as long as I get my check on the 15th and the 30th I try not to care very much about the rest of the BS. I digress, what I will offer is that the truth is here in bits and pieces, but most people reading this stuff don't work here so they cannot filter out all of the noise to find it.

So here's my take your milage may vary, but I will TRY to keep my observations factual.

From day one till about week one or two as newhires we were trained together, Atlas and Polar. In the begining there was love and God smiled upon the two brothers for they were truly their brother's keeper. After about 3 days the fractuousness began. From my perspective it was always a Polar pilot mentioning how much better things were for them from their perspective. From their work rules, to basings, to the fact that Polar newhires earn more for training and get gar. after 60 days as opposed to after IOE at Atlas (All of these things are true no one will argue that the Atlas CBA is better than Polar's).

It was quite evident most were quite pleased that they were at Polar and not at Atlas and they didn't mind telling you so. This is after one week. My mother always says that it is impolite to rub someones nose in the fact that your situation is better than theirs when they have little or no choice. Never once at a dinner conversation or while we were out one on one did an Atlas guy go "man you guys should've come to work over here". Hell most of us were trying to just get thru what they call training! Note to all considering coming here; while training is a good bonding experience and there are many good folks in the training department, training at Atlas doesn't prepare one for one's check ride or the line. It really is several weeks of self study!

Now groups fracturing along lines of commonaltiy is not unusal. In the Atlas group 400 vs 200 was qutie common, but there was never any animosity. We were one group in class and at the bar. But Atlas vs Polar was rancorous from the begining. Driven by egos kinda like , "Oh Kalitta is better than Southern! Well Gemini is better than both of those Bottom feeders!" Mine is always better than yours. Nonsense!

When you get out online the nastiness is really obvious! Here's are some of the things I have heard and discovered on my own.

The Atlas pilot group as a whole has no love for the Polar pilot group. Anyone who says different doesn't work at Atlas. This is a fact verifable on a JS with an Atlas crew. ( I will offer it seems to be driven by the fact that Mgmt here has played games with the Atlas pilot group for years, primarily by setting up atler ego companies GSS, AACS, and Polar (sometimes tranfering Atlas equipment in the process always to the detriment of Atlas pilot jobs) In this sitution it is evident that in recent years Atlas pilots (esp. senior FOs) have gotten a screw job.

The Polar pilot group has never shown a history of solidarity with the Atlas pilot group. It is a verifable fact that the Polar pilot group has under cut the Atlas pilot group at several turns in their short histories together. No Polar pilot has ever denied that they were willing to fly Atlas struck cargo. Neither have they denied that because of legal action taken by Polar pilot group Atlas mgmt was legally complelled to furlough Atlas pilots while hiring off the street in to Polar. Some may say that the strength of the Polar CBA vs the realtive weakness of the Atlas CBA was to blame, but but come on these guys are playing in the same sandbox. It didn't have to happen this way it was driven by the Polar MEC. Atlas pilots lost jobs and can anyone say they should have been happy about that. CAn you feel the botherly love? Union YES!!!

The Polar strike was authorized by the Polar MEC and the Polar Pilot group for reasons soley motivated to imporve things for themselves, not the group as a whole. Wether you believe the Polar strike was a sucess or a failure, the truth is it didn't have to happen. The truth is the TA that was signed was frightening similar to Cato and Co's last best offer. One might even say it was unchanged. There was a gamble with the strike. You see it always intended to be a strike that was targeted against the Atlas pilot group. Polar alone has very little leverage with this company. This is a verifiable fact. The plan was if they can somehow manuver the Atlas pilot group into striking with them (in violation of the Atlas piece o crap CBA). They could bring the company to offer better terms. A good plan save for one problem. The Atlas pilot group never voted nor did they agree to do so.

It was not in te best interest of the Atlas pilot group for Polar to get everything they were asking for. They may try and frame it that way, but there is no way one can make an if than statement about Polar's gains being Atlas gains!
Nor did they wish it so.
So the what did they do?! They selectively picketed Atlas crewmembers only. With the intention of strongarming them into working for their cause. Now this is absolutely wrong at its core and hasn't engendered any goodwill from anyone at Atlas. Make it miserable for the company OK make it miserable for me and you got a fight. The Atlas group had no stake in Polars nego. NONE AT ALL!

Atlas Did not scab during Polar's strike! For anyone Polar pilot to assert such a fact publicly or privately is an outright lie! Listen we must come to the agreement that struck work rules within ALPA are at their very best are grey! When Comair was on strike DAL didn't shut down. Nor were they expected to. The general understanding is that each pilot group must use its own leverage to achieve gains to their CBA. Another group shouldn't work expressly against them, but they shouldn't be complled to work in the other's intrest at the behest of their own. This is cannon in the history on pilot nego. Basically you got what you got, no cheating! A strong hand or a strong bluff, but once its called that's that. What many at Polar would have people believe was that we willfully operated their airline while they were on strike. That is an outright lie and grounds to get b!tch slapped! I personally checked cargo during that time preiod to make sure that there was no cargo of Polar manifest on the ships I flew! Many others did the same. Everyone here respectfully upheld Polar's right to self help, but alas it was not enough.

Now Polar is bringing Article 8 charges against 160 Atlas crewmembers. Nearly a 3rd of the Atlas pilot group is going to have to defend themselves against slanderous/libelous charges based upon piss poor facts and directions. The strike is over. If it was a win let's say bygones and move on. How dare anyone say around the world their is no animosity between Atlas and Polar.

Polar is picking this fight and I simply cannot understand why?! Anyone out there like to offer a reason.

I wish we could all merge fairly and get along as one group! But the extreme fringes seem to be a the helm and that's can only precipitate a fight. It is truly a sad state of affairs

 

[744]

Furloughfodder:

The voices in your head are not real. Aliens are not controlling the United States government. And Atlas pilots did not fly your flights during your strike. Now go take your medication.


bman:

Good post. You are wiser than your seniority <g>.

You ask "Polar is picking this fight and I simply cannot understand why?! Anyone out there like to offer a reason?".

This being my second merger, I believe that I can offer you one. POWER. Mergers create power struggles in both management and the Union, and these events are being driven by the Polar MEC's desire to dominate the combined airline.

There is no other explanation for their strike. This also explains why, in the lead up to the strike, they showed no interest whatsoever in working with the Atlas MEC. It would have been a great achievement, little Polar breaking management without any help from Bourne. Unfortunately the plan was based on the flawed belief that AAWH could not survive more than 7 days without Polar. This explains whey Polar's leadership could not give anyone at Atlas the time of day—until the start of the second week of their strike, when suddenly we were supposed rise up in mass and save them by violating our CBA, ALPA precedent and federal court orders.

Now, having failed, they are lashing out in an attempt to find someone, anyone, to blame. They tried pinning it on ALPA National, but that did not fly. So now they are lashing out at the Atlas pilots.

AND FOR THE RECORD, a few facts. Polar offices stopped accepting freight the day after the strike began. Management made no effort to operate Polar, even after the first court order gave them the opportunity to easily do so. So during the strike there were no Polar flights for Atlas or anyone else to operate. And after the first few days there was no "Polar freight" in the system for anyone to find.

Delta did not scab Comair, the Northwest pilots are not scabs for not honoring the mechanic's lines. And Atlas pilots are not scabs for flying Atlas airplanes on Atlas flights.

 

[B747-300]

I'm starting to think I misnamed this thread. It should have been Polar vs. Everyone Else.

Atlas management believes that Polar crews are in violation of the "back to work" agreement that was signed at the end of their ill conceived strike. Now Polar is taking on ALPA National, 160 Atlas Air crewmembers and their parent company. That's not balls, that's stupidity!

Surely there must be one voice of reason at Polar. Isn't there anyone willing to stand up and say "stop the madness"? Is everyone so afraid of being added to the "snake list" that they won't voice any disagreement with the way the Polar MEC is behaving?

 

[Classicdriver]

B747-300,
There are some people that try and speak up at Polar and they are immediately squashed. I listened in on a couple of their conference calls leading up to the strike, and the few voices that were against it didn't have a chance.

One guy even brought up the eleventh hour stuff that B.F. did and he was shut down fast. He wanted to make peace with the Atlas and no one wanted to hear it. No one running the call wanted to hear any dissension

bman,
Good post. It's amazing to me that the average Polar guy forgets certain facts along the way. Selectively mind you. They were about to go belly up when bought. A friend of mine there at the time, was looking for work because he was sure the end was near. Today, he denies it.

They took a three percent bribe to keep them from negotiating at the same time as we were...nay nay, that was a bonus for improving their on-time performance, albeit, with their new shinny GE powered Atlas planes. The six month extension had nothing to do with Atlas?

Not a single Polar guy I've spoken to has asked about what happen in the eleventh hour. They don't want to know or are afraid of the result of the question....Snake List. The favorite response, it didn't happen. Just like the beating up of vans at Anchorage, never happen, grin, wink.

Up to nine months ago, the average Atlas guys feeling was live and let live. From day one, I got the feeling that the Polar guys always felt they were better and wanted Atlas to go away, IE, fail, close, etc.

Another point brought up on another forum. Individually, I have had more than a few beers and breakfast with some Polar guys, no problem. More than two at a time, and it is ugly. A pack mentality.

BTW, I just got a certified letter from PAC 23. I'm being accused of being a scab for flying a Quantas flight before the "Vertual Picket Line" came about. No picketers seen. Atlas flight, Atlas plane, Atlas crew, Atlas contract and I'm a scab. Don't think so. Our CBA says I have to go to work unless I or my crew feels threatened by a picket line. There wasn't one to be threatened by.

 

[Reebo]

bman, thanks for the info. It helps us on the outside get a feel for what's going on. Excellent post!

 

[bman]

B747-300,

BTW, I just got a certified letter from PAC 23. I'm being accused of being a scab for flying a Quantas flight before the "Vertual Picket Line" came about. No picketers seen. Atlas flight, Atlas plane, Atlas crew, Atlas contract and I'm a scab. Don't think so. Our CBA says I have to go to work unless I or my crew feels threatened by a picket line. There wasn't one to be threatened by.

Hey man consider it a badge of honor and when you win your civil lawsuit for libel/slander all of this will be a distant memory cause you can retire. Beers are on you at that point! Hey maybe they'll put us all on that list:beer:

 

[treetopflyer]

or maybe polar will be bought by united and they will be afforded the same opportunities that air wisconsin was. or maybe just date of hire. 737-400 fo comes to mind.

just kidding i wouldnt wish the world of untied airlines on anyone, thats a fact.

 

[B747FR8DAWG]

Yawn.................

This being my second merger, I believe that I can offer you one. POWER. Mergers create power struggles in both management and the Union, and these events are being driven by the Polar MEC's desire to dominate the combined airline.

Bingo!, you hit it right on the head. It is a power struggle, and the polaroids are detremined to muscle their way into the drivers seat of the (if it ever happens) merged carrier. They are a small fish in a big pond, Atlas has twice as many crewmembers and aircraft, than polar does. It was evident during their strike, during week one, there was no impact on the overall Atlas operation, and they (polar) went un-noticed, so week two comes along , and that's when things get crazy, in an effort to be noticed by HDQ. They (polar) then attack the Atlas operation, to bring attention to their cause.

I was at the MIA crew meeting and the holiday party, and saw Bobbbb Henderson (polar mec) chairman, smiling and shaking hands with all the Atlas folks present, and he was talking all this unity crap, and now he files article 8 charges against our crewmembers. He is one confused little man, that's always reminiscing about Eastern airlines, get over it bobbbbb, Eastern is gone, move on! Leave all that bad blood in the past.

Now, I'm sure that this thread will get a little heated now, once the polaroids show up here again, to spread all their infinite wisdom, and set the record straightuke:






Guys, to be honest, I want all this to end. The constant Atlas / polar bashing is not helping either groups image, and this thread is starting to get boring!

As Rodney King said years ago "Can't we all just get along?"

 

[B-atch]

B747-300 wrote
fodder:

"First, you say I’m John C posting drivel. Once you realize nobody believed that lie, you make another post trying to justify your deceitful actions against Atlas crews. You have no credibility whatsoever."

"YOUR STRIKE DID FAIL! You came away with exactly what was on the table before the cooling off period began. You have generated all these hard feelings for nothing! You drank the Kool-Aid the Polar MEC offered and you blindly followed former Chairman Bob F and his illiterate successor into battle.

Your negotiations failed. Your strike failed. Your attempt to scab list Atlas crews will fail. Polar will be sold and the buyer is only interested in the -400s. All of you will be out of a job and out of ALPA. You will forever be remembered as the biggest collection of losers in union history."

Better to face an uncertain future and a possible carreer change than to share the same flight deck with the LIKES of you. Enjoy you'r MISERABLE existence.......People like you live SHORT LIVES....Massive coronary or worse!!!

 

[weasel_lips]

Here is a question for you guys:

I understand that Polar has several routes (or flights) that are being flown by Atlas on an ACMI agreement. Is this true?



WL

 

[B747-300]

"I'm a b-atch, I'm a b-atch
Oh the b-atch is back
Stone cold sober as a matter of fact
I can b-atch, I can b-atch
`Cause I'm better than you
It's the way that I move
The things that I do"

 

[Classicdriver]

Here is a question for you guys:

I understand that Polar has several routes (or flights) that are being flown by Atlas on an ACMI agreement. Is this true?



WL

Atlas flys some segments that are Polar. I believe we are down to one plane doing Polar full time. Others pick up cargo out of ICN or HKG, on the backside of military flights from East Coast to Gulf, then DH to HKG or ICN. It works better for everyone. The plane is paid for to Far East by military, then full out of there. Otherwise it would have to fly lite loads from USA to Far East.

Polar was flying some Atlas flights out of MIA as well. That has gone away for the time being. Not a big deal unless one is furloughing and the other is hiring.

 

[cfire]

furloughfodder:

I am a new poster here, frequently post on Pprune as cfire also, ALPA national boards and on the Atlas ALPA boards.

I recognize your writing style from the same places.

Your message is always the same and without any facts to back them up or selectively chosen to fit Bobb H., Bob F. or your need. There was a lot of that selectivity during the 7 different interpretations ALPA national legal came up with for compliance to the struck work rules and court injuctions over the two week strike.

I noticed that Polar just picked from what they liked out of the seven ALPA national legal revisions. The ALPA national board noticed it also when they refused the 160 Article 8 actions against our pilot group. Now the pathetic SBC committee at Polar sending out letters. Actually, it helps the Atlas group in prosecuting an action. Thanks.

I was present for many of the Polar actions structured to stick it to the Atlas pilot group (i.e. Polar willingness to scab at the end of our cooling off period under Bob F.). I still kept my bile down to help in a cooperative effort establishing Polar/Atlas informational pickets in the past prior to the Polar strike.

All of that aside for the moment, a recent letter from the company to Bobb Henderson is acknowledgement of the current state of hate between Polar and Atlas. I image this letter is really just a way for the company negotiatior (Jim Cato) to defray themselves from any liability in upholding the back to work agreement. You know, "you can't sue me I warned them."

Here is the letter to the association from Cato IN PDF Format

Am I biased? Yes.

Why? I was there and have proof.

 

[744]

Weasel lips:

The egg has been well scrambled.

Yes, Atlas does ACMI flying for Polar.

Polar also does some creative code-sharing that would otherwise be ACMI.

Polar's South American route system uses what were Atlas route authorities.

And the military flying goes to both, depending on the whims of scheduling.

One could easily cherry pick the schedule to make whatever point one wanted to make.