PNCL: Class personified!! wow., just wow

[xjhawk]

The reason they could not come to an agreement is that the individual MEC's are bound to only accept what is best for their pilots. Any compromise to "give" to another pilot group screws a portion of their pilots-putting the negotiators in a bad place. It is best so they do not have the future label as a bad negotiator is have an arbitrator complete the process-even though the arbitrator wants some sort of compromise. And when you look at the first proposals and think they are outlandish-well that (sadly) is how negotiations go. You start from one end and work towards a less acceptable (but still acceptable) compromise. So by starting out with DOH with fences and DOH credit (this is all speculation from a previous post) would hopefully lead them to DOH-which is apparently what they wanted.

 

[xjhawk]

I would have to think any Pinnacle pilot would be happy with DOH-to a lesser extent most Mesba pilots would be okay with it too. The unfair sticking point is career expectations for the Colgan pilots. Something needs to be done to accommodate them, and the only way to do it without giving them a huge windfall (great contract and seniority) is to do DOH with Fences to protect their current positions. The unrealistic sticking point to DOH is un idiotic position the Pinnacle MEC and negotiators who think they were the acquiring airline and they deserve nothing less than huge gains in seniority. If they get that-the Arbitrator is out of his mind-if Colgan gets protection as in fences-acceptable

 

[Flyer1015]

I would have to think any Pinnacle pilot would be happy with DOH-to a lesser extent most Mesba pilots would be okay with it too. The unfair sticking point is career expectations for the Colgan pilots. Something needs to be done to accommodate them, and the only way to do it without giving them a huge windfall (great contract and seniority) is to do DOH with Fences to protect their current positions. The unrealistic sticking point to DOH is un idiotic position the Pinnacle MEC and negotiators who think they were the acquiring airline and they deserve nothing less than huge gains in seniority. If they get that-the Arbitrator is out of his mind-if Colgan gets protection as in fences-acceptable

Dumb proposal. If that's the case, Colgan pilots would get their flying protected with the fence, ensuring their movements (upgrades, base transfer) are within their own Colgan house. On the other hand, with just DOH and no fences for 9E/XJ, you will have tons of stale XJ FOs start upgrading, leaving any 9E FO hired 2007 and onwards in the dust while the stale XJ FOs enjoy their first upgrades in 3+ years. Yeah, sounds fair to me!

 

[bri5150]

Dumb proposal. If that's the case, Colgan pilots would get their flying protected with the fence, ensuring their movements (upgrades, base transfer) are within their own Colgan house. On the other hand, with just DOH and no fences for 9E/XJ, you will have tons of stale XJ FOs start upgrading, leaving any 9E FO hired 2007 and onwards in the dust while the stale XJ FOs enjoy their first upgrades in 3+ years. Yeah, sounds fair to me!

If it's DOH with no fences for 9E/XJ, how will an '07 9E FO be left in the dust while an '08 XJ FO gets to upgrade? Am I missing something? Do you even know what you are writing?

 

[Flyer1015]

If it's DOH with no fences for 9E/XJ, how will an '07 9E FO be left in the dust while an '08 XJ FO gets to upgrade? Am I missing something? Do you even know what you are writing?

Yes you are missing something. Because it won't be the '08 XJ FOs upgrading, it will be the ones before that. Mesabas FOs, overall, are more senior than Pinnacle FOs. The most recent Pinnacle upgrade went to a DOH of March 2007. What's the most junior XJ upgrade? Oh wait, you haven't had one (save the LGA Saab) for almost 3 years. How many countless FOs are at XJ from 2004-2007 who are just waiting at their opportunity for upgrading? I got news for you: if Mesaba was a stand alone carrier, they would not be upgrading. With less and less Saabs as time goes on, you'd be looking at furloughs and downgrades. Even if the US Air Saabs stick for a long time, you'd be down to 60 RJs and 7 Saabs at LGA. That's 67 planes. Your list of the current 1,070 or so would dwindle down even further. No matter which way you look at it, this merger, and especially this one list, is a savior for Mesaba. I'd hate to look at XJ with only 60 RJs by 2012 if you were a stand-alone carrier. And guess what? Delta owned you before PNCL holdings bought you. Do you know Delta does to its wholly owned carriers? Just ask sister Comair..............

 

[xjhawk]

I have not studied the lists but I do know that Pinnacle had its bulk of hiring prior to almost all of Mesaba's post Bankruptcy growth-making DOH desirable for most of your pilots (except the ultra senior who seem to control the MEC). So I do not have the lists in front of me, but lets just say 500 is the post bankruptcy number at Mesaba-that means the majority of your FO's and Jr Captains would be Senior to most of the Mesaba people. How is this bad? Oh that is right, you must have 15 years in at Pinnacle and are bitter at the Mesaba list having all those 15+ people on it. I will also stand by the fact that Pinnacle AIrlines was not as economically viable as you say BECAUSE it has what, 140 CRJ 200's-the very plane that Delta is trying reduce their number. By giving Mesaba to Pinnacle (providing the financing-because Delta knew pinnacle was not able to financially afford it without help) it extended the ASA for the Mesaba flying. Did they also extend the Pinnacle ASA? I do not know. But I do not think the fate of your airline without the injection of Mesaba was all that peachy.

DOH works out better for a higher % of Pinnacle pilots since 2004 you took delivery of what....70 planes while Mesaba since 2007/8 took delivery of only 41. So all your posturing and lies are all to screw your own bottom half of the list. And by proposing what your MEC (negotiators) proposed is based on lies. From what I hear was not backed up by ANY real evidence, unlike other proposals brought forth during mediation.

 

[xjhawk]

If it's DOH with no fences for 9E/XJ, how will an '07 9E FO be left in the dust while an '08 XJ FO gets to upgrade? Am I missing something? Do you even know what you are writing?

This person, just like the rest of them cannot see proof in numbers-as their lies from what I hear have no legal precedence. The status of Mesaba-the LOA-their own seniority list when compared to that of Mesaba's is all blind to this guy. He is only concerned with the very top part of the list. I just keep asking myself why they were not going to DOH when they obviously hired way more people before we did (since 2003 at least)? Then I figured it out-they are greedy idiots and are hoping for an injustice like that of Frontier and Midwest. Two good airlines screwed by a group of terrible people. Oh and they forget-we are all ALPA-bound by ALPA merger policy. I just hope the fair and equitable is fair and equitable by Bloch's standards

 

[xjhawk]

Hey flyer-see that-even after listening to idiots like you on the boards I still want fair and equitable for all-which means we will all give something for this to work and make it a place not hate the guy I am sitting next too. I am surprised you idiots did not go as far to say staple all under you and use the American/TWA example as your reasoning. Someone probably whispered in some 9E MEC member that the American/TWA model is not looked favorably upon (which history will show the same will be said about your precious Republic model)

 

[Flyer1015]

Alright, alright, alright. I'll be for DOH but with NO fences (not even for the props). I still can't understand Colgan's stance against DOH. Their most junior upgrade has already approached a 2010 DOH. God forbid a Colgan pilot have to wait more than 12 months for an upgrade. Imagine the horror! We've had people here wait 4+ years with no upgrade, and I'm sure Mesaba paints a similar picture. And most Pinnacle pilots have no interest in coming to the prop side of the picture, except the IAH base. I know a few that want IAH, and are willing to go from the RJ to the Q for that. But for everything else, the only movement to the props would be for upgrade. No one wants EWR, and any pilot close to EWR at Pinnacle is already at JFK.

I will also stand by the fact that Pinnacle AIrlines was not as economically viable as you say BECAUSE it has what, 140 CRJ 200's-the very plane that Delta is trying reduce their number.

This is a moot point. That flying is covered by an ASA going through 2017. Delta wants to cut 50 seaters, they can, and will cut them, but it won't be from Pinnacle. Not unless our performance goes down the chute, that's another story for another thread. But as of now, the only ones Delta can *easily* bend over are wholly owned carriers. Comair is the unlucky one, and everyone knows what's happening with them. Guess the #2 wholly owned carrier at Delta? Yup, Mesaba. You being bought by PNCL Holdings was the best thing that could happen for XJ. Mesaba now avoids a similar fate as Comair. Delta shows no mercy for those they can easily cut. As for cuts for a regional (like PNCL) that already has an ASA in place, Delta found out how expensive it is to go to court and litigation involved (remember Mesa/Freedom). At the end, they STILL paid almost 45 million to get rid of that contract.

As for this:

Mesaba to Pinnacle (providing the financing-because Delta knew pinnacle was not able to financially afford it without help) it extended the ASA for the Mesaba flying. Did they also extend the Pinnacle ASA? I do not know. But I do not think the fate of your airline without the injection of Mesaba was all that peachy.

Now you are speaking highly of the very ASA I tried to invoke as protection for the Pinnacle 200s. So you use it only when it helps you to make your point? As I stated before, the Pinnacle CRJ200s are not being cut, and contractually "can't" be cut unless we violate certain ASA provisions. You are correct that our ASA was extended with the Mesaba purchase. The 200s did not change, ASA goes through 2017, but with Mesaba and Pinnacle 900s, the ASA was further extended for a total of 12 years. Even without a Mesaba purchase, our future was still much, much better than any other regional out there. Most other regional's ASA expire in the next few years, like 2012-2015. Almost EVERYONE is due up. Pinnacle has theirs go through 2017. The 900s are even longer than that. While our future isn't peachy-perfect, it certainly is better compared to almost every other regional out there. And certainly, our future standalone was far better than Mesaba's future standalone, being just 60 RJs and 7 Saabs for a total of 67 aircraft by the end of 2012.

 

[bri5150]

Flyer,

I am too tired to look up the details, but I remember lots of ASA's at Mesaba that "locked up" our flying for a long time. I have only been here 6 years, so they certainly weren't "locked up". Granted, some were from pre-bankruptcy, but if Delta wants to dump flying, I am pretty sure they will find a way to do it. Was ASA's (the airline) flying "locked up" when they got the ratio for the 900's that were coming our way? I honestly don't know, but I assume they were otherwise they would have just been cut. Contracts are great, but we all know how well management sticks to contracts. If anyone has details on past XJ ASA's, I would be happy to here about them. Avros and Saabs, and maybe even the 200's we were suppose to get but only got 2, got "locked up" for a looooong time just before bankruptcy, I remeber that.