PLEASE READ AND ADVISE. –The new guy nee

[dduplechain]

I am interested in starting a career in aviation (as a pilot). I am currently working in the technology industry as a developer. I have a degree in Marketing and about 7 years of experience with data technology. I have always wanted to navigate the friendly skies, but thought it was too expensive of an option to pursue. Those concerns are no longer an issue and I am ready to embark on a new experience. I am exploring three possible training solutions:
1. To attend a local Community College like Mountain View or Texas State Technical College Waco. Pros: Cost will be about $21K for the Private, Instrument, Commercial, and Instructor Certificates. Cons: Length of time is about 2 years.
2. To attend a structured private program like American Flyers. Pros: Rapid training program will take about 90 days. Cons: Cost will be about $40K – $45K for the Private, Instrument, Commercial, and Instructor Certificates (with Multi- Engine).
3. To attend an unstructured program like Monarch Air. Pros: Cost. They estimate about $20K for the Private, Instrument, and Commercial (with Multi- Engine). Cons: You’re on your own. Limited support with regards to ground training and instruction.
Has anyone attended any of these programs? If so, please let me know about your experience (good or bad). Any advice will be welcomed. I want to make the right choice for this critical decision.

I look forward to your responses.
-Dirk Duplechain
[email protected]

 

[Timebuilder]

Before you spend a dime, do some reseach here on the board. Get familiar with the current state of the industry, and the various opinions about "recovery" time for aviation.

When you say that you want a career in aviation, define the goal for us, since there are many avaition careers. Thinking about a captain job at a top major? I predict that pay scales will slump at the upper end, particualry if United is able to abrogate its labor cantracts, causing a domino effect in the industry to be competitive. Want to fly checks? Many banks are no longer shipping large amounts of checks. Caveat Emptor.

If you want to be a flight instructor or a regional "RJ" pilot, you have an attainable goal for a zero time guy. Estimating how long it will take to re-absorb all of the furloughed pilots is a job for the Amazing Kreskin. What lifestyle would you find to be satisfactory?

Flying is fun. Making a job of it is often less fun. Making a good living is becoming more difficult.

Some things to consider before you start with paying out dollar number one.

 

[JediNein]

Welcome to Flightinfo.com!

The reading I do on this board and jetcareers.com, plus constant communication with the folks in various programs indicate option #2 as your best bet for completing quickly and with less money. Don't look at just American Flyers. AllATPs has a 90 day program and a weekend-only program that accomplish the same objectives. Use the search option and put in various key words. Most any abbreviation has been used, mispellings, and typos, so be creative.

FBO training, like Monarch Air and certain community colleges, can be cheaper or more expensive. The training can be more complete or hit and miss. The instructors might follow a syllabus, or jump into the cockpit each lesson asking "what are we doing today?" Some schools, including my own, write their own training course and constantly revise and update it. It takes more work to find the good instructors, good airplanes, and a good flight school to keep the instructors and airplanes in shape.

Unless you need the college credit and the student loan, do not pay a community college tuition for attending a ground school you can obtain privately. There are programs that issue credit based on earned certificates. The credit hours just become an added unnecessary expense, not required for a job or for flight training.

Before you put any course deposit down, and definitely do not put 6 figures into a flight school's coffers BEFORE training, visit flight schools. Look at the ones at your local airport. Look at airports within 2 hours drive. Visit American Flyers (and AllATPS), Monarch Air, and the community college's FBOs. Don't just take our word for it.

What I did: Took the FBO route. Found the best instructors I could find. Regretted the two times I took other-than-best-for-me instruction. Waited on the multiengine rating. Watched airline jobs go to those with 1/4th my time, except they had multi ratings. Watched the airlines furlough, and those that got the jobs were high enough on the seniority list to be above the furloughs, rounds 1 through 5. Fell in love with flight instructing. Landed at a great flight school. I'm where I want to be.

When you are looking for the first flight instructor job, if that's the path you choose, use your marketing and data experience to help you get hired. Many schools do not have an organized system for tracking leads, nor do they market well. Your additional duties assisting the school with marketing and leads may pay for the dry times, or, keep enough students coming into the school to eliminate dry times.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[bobbysamd]

Choices

With times the way they are I don't believe that you will gain a real advantage by hurrying. Unless you can line up an instructing job at Flyers, etc. after finishing you might find that you hurried up and will wait because there are very few jobs to be had. Therefore, you might be better off going to one of the CCs you mentioned and saving your money. Although you already have your degree and have checked off that square a two-year degree in aviation certainly won't hurt you. Moreover, you'll benefit from the classroom experience.

I certainly would stay away from an unstructured program. I trained for most of my ratings in an unstructured program because I flew for fun for many years. I needed my two multi ratings before I could change careers, and I earned those in an unstructured situation. I was working full time and needed the paycheck to (1) survive and (2) finish. In looking back, I wish that I would have summoned up the courage to stop working, take out a loan for training, and finished full-time at some place like ERAU or Oklahoma State U. while earning a second degree (I was living in Oklahoma City at the time.). I, personally, would have benefited from the discipline of a school environment and would have learned more.

Finally, I'd suggest you expand your horizons. Look at schools from all over. You might find something that is the best of all worlds for you.

Hope that helps some more. Good luck with your plans.

 

[dduplechain]

Thank you Timebuilder.

Thank you Timebuilder. I am keenly aware of the state of the industry. It tends to fluctuate as much as the IT industry, but I believe these industries will return to some form of stability once fear and war subsides.
My long-term goals are to fly for a major airline. From my limit research, I found that most carriers require to at least 1,500 – 2,000 hours of flight before they will even talk to you (but my estimates could be wrong). I hope to obtain many of these hours (and endorsements) as a trainer. I think that over the next two years the industry will slowly recover. I want to able to take advantage of any opportunities the recovery will harvest.

I look forward to your response.
-Dirk

 

[Ryan]

I fully agree with the above posts. Research all available options before committing yourself. One thing I would like to add though is before worrying about your future in aviation is to just go out and get your PPL. Im not sure about this, but I have a feeling that many people have great dreams about becoming an airline pilot, plunk thousands of dollars down for all their ratings and then find out after a few hours of flying that its just not what they thought it was going to be.

I myself am going the FBO route. Im in no rush, Im just taking my time collecting my ratings and having a good time doing it. I think someones tag line on this board is "its not your final destination but the adventure along the way" Very true. So above all just remember to enjoy every flight and then it wont matter where you end up in the aviation community.

Best of luck
Ryan

 

[dduplechain]

Thanks everyone.

What about getting training from one of the following:
*Pan Am International Flight Academy
*Delta Connection Academy
*Flight Safety Academy

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

dduplechain,


You've found a great place to obtain information about flying. It's not called flightinfo for nothing In regards to your path, BobbySam gives great advice. It's probably best to slow down a little. My advice would be to hit a flight school with a good reputation and get your private license. Until you've completed the private I believe it is difficult to really know how much you will want to fly for a living. There are many added benefits to taking your time initially;

One is the information you can get from web boards like this that has certainly enlighted me about what it takes, the hardships many pilots have to endure, the sometimes or often poor labor relations, etc. Also the relationships you build in the industry, just at a GA airport can be connections that you'll keep for many years and may help land you that position you'll spend the rest of your working career at.

2nd, and I think rarely mentioned is, that in 90 days, although you'll fly alot you won't see too much in the way of various weather. It may seem trivial, but watching a few seasons of weather from a pilot's perspective teaches alot. It sure did for me. I used to walk outside and think, wow it's a nice hot day. A little hazy but no big deal. A day like that has much more in the way of implications and is much different for a professional pilot. Same goes for frontal passages and any other weather phenomena one can think of.

Good luck on your choice and welcome to the board.


Mr. I.

 

[bobbysamd]

FlightSafety

There has been plenty written about FlightSafety Academy on this board, especially by me. I instructed there several years ago. Overall, the place offers great training and opportunities. Ground school is adequate. Flight training is excellent. FlightSafety is about the only place I know that offers true spin and unusual attitudes training - something that will be great for your confidence as a pilot. It takes a little more than six months to complete the course from zero time to Commercial-Multi-Instrument. You can train for your CFI at FSI and possibly have a chance at a job there after you finish. I say "possibly" because I understand that there's a six-month waiting list for in-house CFI grads.

The place is expensive, but worth it, I feel, in terms of facilities, equipment, name-recognition in the business, and upside.

Mr. I. raises a good point about weather experience. In Florida you will have a few opportunities to fly in IMC . Otherwise, weather in Florida is benign the great majority of the time. If you train in Texas you will experience the gamut of weather, from wind, to severe weather, frontal passages, to snow, to ice storms, to safe IMC. Not that you would fly in some of the latter conditions in your trainers, but experiencing such conditions will hone your weather analysis and decision-making skills. It's a point worth considering.

Once more, good luck with your choice.

PS-I would use somewhat higher totals than you mentioned for regional consideration. Probably 2000+ with 500+ of multi are more realistic to be truly competitive. Having your ATP would be a plus.

 

[Timebuilder]

Thank you Timebuilder. I am keenly aware of the state of the industry. It tends to fluctuate as much as the IT industry, but I believe these industries will return to some form of stability once fear and war subsides.

Certainly the industry will stabilize. The important question for yourself and other prospective professional pilots is: at what level will the industry stabilize, and what will be the attributes of this stabilized industry?

We are approaching the tail end of the baby boom in terms of the age 60 rule, and in fifteen years the rate of airline retirements will be far fewer than they are today, while the large jet flying will become mostly international work, and the domestic workload will fall to the less expensive "regional" jet. The competition for the "major" airline job will become even more intense as the number of new pilots continues to grow, while the number of "major" airline jobs lags behind the industry as a whole. Expect flawless resumes, jet experience, youth, and personal recommendations to be the hallmarks of those who do manage to get hired at a major.

You, and a lot of other youngsters (compared to me, ) need to take a long look at the changing nature of "the prize" for which you are now striving, and evaluate the pros and cons. IMHO, flying from now on will be a worthwhile occupation only for those who LOVE it.

Those looking to make big pay should consider a more lucrative field.

 

[80/20]

I agree with the previous answers and would like to add that one main advantage of a "structured" flight training program is that you get more help to manage your training. Some schools have strict requirements with internal stage test and written test in addition to what the FAA require. This can be a great help for those who work best under some pressure. You seem to have life experience, a degree and probably know how to study on your own.
One key element will be your instructors. Professionals have various qualities in all industries. You might be able to find an excellent flight instructor in many different places. Some AB-inito 141 schools tend to use "low" experienced time builders. Nothing bad to say about that as long as they are sincere and care, but it is naturally better to get someone with experience because flying is a very practical profession. One advantage with large schools is that you may have a better chance to get a job as an instructor and build those crucial hard to get first hours. There may, however, be more students that want to teach than there are instructor positions. Schools that have many foreign students that are going back home and/or do not have their rights to work in the USA have often been able to offer instructor jobs to many of their US students.

Our industry goes through continuos cycles. Many have said that the best time to start is during a recession, words that have proved themselves over and over again. Those that make a realistic plan, manage their finances, prepare to spend several years with low pay, don't expect to find any shortcuts, plan to "pay their dues" and so on will almost always make it.

Those with a programming background might have an advantage right now because most airlines would like to replace paper manuals with electronic manuals. They are trying to move towards XML tagging and database document management systems that produce and update electronic manuals for operations, flight crew and maintenance. For these tasks they can either hire expensive third party providers or try to find someone with a programming background and interest for the industry. Don't expect that this will get you an airline job right away but it might help you once you have the required hours and experience.

 

[pilotyip]

career advice

If you want to make a living as a pliot, do a scearch under "pilotyip" and check my previous posts, they are counter to the advice you will get from this board, but they fit my profile of the successful pilot. But then again what would I know I have only been in this business for nearly 40 years and had 7 flying jobs. If you have any questions PM me.

 

[Timebuilder]

Pilotyip, was there any advice in this thread that you felt was incorrect? I'd be interested to read your post that you think is most relevant to this person.

 

[pilotyip]

Not this post

Nothing in this post so far, but I refered to the bigger picture of all the info you will get from this board for newbe's. Like the advice to get a 4 yr degree before you start your flying career is necessary to be a successful pilot, I say it is not required, but it depends upon what you define as successful, if you think DC-9 Capt at USA Jet, AirTran, Spirit is not successful making close to 100K per year, then you may have to redefine what it is you are looking for in a successful career.

 

[bobbysamd]

College degree

Nothing in this post so far, but I refered to the bigger picture of all the info you will get from this board for newbe's. Like the advice to get a 4 yr degree before you start your flying career is necessary to be a successful pilot, I say it is not required . . . .

Maybe not required. Flight schools only ask for a high school diploma, which can be satisified by a G.E.D. , so, if you want to look at it from that perspective, you can be a dropout and be a professional pilot.

A degree is certainly extremely helpful in an always-competitive hiring environment. Everyone benefits from education in ways that transcend flying. Moreover, so many places express a preference for at least some college, if not a four-year degree. I say "always-competitive" because there is never an shortage of pilots and there is always a shortage of jobs, even during good times. You have to present the best credentials possible, and the most education possible is just one.

I realize that Yip plays counterpoint to others' point about going to college. I would just say that one should get an education, no matter what one's plans are for life. But go to college because you want to and because you're fully convinced that you will benefit from the experience. Otherwise, you'll waste your money and time, and take up space from someone who wants to be there.

In any event, the original poster has his degree, so any advice counter to that is moot.

 

[hydroflyer]

I also agree that now may be the time to take the training a little slower and get the opportunity to see as much weather and flying environments as possible. Other things you will see that way is all of the possible job opportunities there are out there for flying. Originally I had the goal of major airline, but now it is to just have fun and see where it all leads. I believe I will have more fun flying a variety of smaller planes then leaping to a large jet (that even includes an RJ) where the autopilot dominates at this time.
There are a couple of areas that have not been touched on that I thought I would include for you to help your decision. Maintenance is a huge issue! Make sure where you end up has quality maintenance. Talk to the current students about that issue. Some good signs would be that you have access to aircraft logs upon request without any hassle. Inspections every 100 hours are required for instruction, and some places will even do a 50 hour service. Don't just judge an airplane by its paint however, check the inside of some of the airplanes in the fleet and see how many "inoperative" stickers there are. It may not be a good sign to see a lot, a few may be typical, depending on the size of the fleet and how long the sticker has been there. Poor maintenance could mean airplanes breaking down constantly, cancelled flight lessons and more money due to making up lessons and stretching out the training. It is also nice to have the peace of mind that you are flying in a well maintained airplane. Often you could see a pretty paint covering a poor airplane. A few extra dollars one place may charge for good maintenance is worth it!
Another thing to check on is instructors. If an instructor leaves, how hard is it to change instructors? Do they teach in similar fashions? What happens if your instructor is sick? At a 141 school I taught at, we were all "standardized" meaning we taught things in the same format, however the approaches could be different. For example, we all taught the steps for setting up and perfoming a maneuver the same way, so if a student swapped instructors, they wouldn't start to perform a maneuver and be told that "it is all wrong" or something to that effect. If a student had a problem with a certain maneuver or landing or something and could not "get over the hump" so to speak, then they could go up with another instructor and see if that would help. Often all it took was a fresh look from another instructor and a different phrase to change everything. That alone could keep the learning going.
If you do decide to go professional, a great way to study and prepare for the CFI, as well as any certificate and rating along the way, is to make a list of all of the questions you are quizzed with by your instructor and then rather than write the answers down on the list, just write WHERE the answers are. You can use the list as a study guide, and then eventually use it to help quiz your students.

 

[EngineOut]

If the Professional Pilot DEGREE is what you seek, Mountain View is as good as any aviation program, but since you already have a collegiate background, you may choose to supplement your 141 training with individual classes. You don't need to be enrolled in a degree program to take Human Factors, Meteorology, and whatnot. The ground schools at MVC are quite a bargain, though: $78 ($26/credit hour x 3 credits) for a 141 approved ground school! Compare that to the $30+/hr you'd pay a flight instructor for each required hour of ground school. They have a really nice, new Simulator Lab, too, including a dozen or so CBT terminals. CFI grads were hired by Howell's in Grand Prairie, but it's been pretty stagnant there lately in terms of CFI flow-through (as I'm sure it has at most places).

You may already have this, but here's a link to the department's website.

http://aviation.mvc.dcccd.edu

Good Luck!