Plane Crash in NW PHX Kills 3

[CitationLover]

Vmc is blueline. It's where if you lose an engine, you will lose directional control at full power (thus the reduction of power from the remaining engine and nose down for recovery). Vne is redline.

Are you sure? Vmc is redline (thanks for the defintion though as I did not know that ) and Vyse is blueline. Vne is usually a thicker redline at the end of the yellow arc or a barberpole on turbines (although most turbines do not have the blue/red lines on their airspeed along with the yellow ranges).

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

Pulled out my dutchess IM and whatyaknow, it has 2 red radials.

Red Radial - 65kts - VMCA
Blue Radial - 86kts - VYSE
Red Radial - 194 - VNE

Guess I should have paid more attention in multi groundschool...

 

[Spencer]

This problem happened to a partner of mine in a 310. Forntunately they recovered. The cause in their case was doing VMC demo at an altitude at which the stall actually occurs before VMC thus creating rotation at the time of the stall. Luckily for them they recovered after a turn.

 

[TonyC]

Wow, such chivalry! What did I do without Tony and Tim??

Kathy

Same thing you do every day without me...

 

[flyboydk]

This problem happened to a partner of mine in a 310. Forntunately they recovered. The cause in their case was doing VMC demo at an altitude at which the stall actually occurs before VMC thus creating rotation at the time of the stall. Luckily for them they recovered after a turn.

Isn't this why you initiate recovery from the Vmc demo at loss of directional control OR the stall warning horn, so there is no way that you stall it while single engine?

 

[Westwindflyer]

Think Before You Speak

How about we stop the speculation. I knew all three of those pilots and half the crap being said on here is b.s. First of all we dont train with the cfi in the backseat and secondly the passenger was a pilot who was observing because his plane got canceled not just some passenger going for a ride. How about you get the facts before making speculations, Westwind is a great school with a very good safety record.

 

[Mr. Cole]

Kathy,

Happy Birthday to your daughter.

Westwind,

Sorry to hear about the loss.

Dave

 

[Timebuilder]

I'll second the happy birthday, and I too am relived that everything was in it's proper place.

I did audition for a healthcare commercial as a doctor yesterday..

just a thought.



As far as losing fiends, that is never easy. I hope they knew Christ.

When I first started studying for my multi I was struck by how many training accidents happen in twins, particularly in high density altitude situations. While I have read that some don't like the limiting of rudder travel using your foot, it is a common method of adding safety to training.

Perhaps more important is being careful to avoid a stall when doing a Vmc demo. We stopped and recovered at "the first indication of a stall" in our training. What is the first indication of a stall? Answer: the stall warning. If the stall warning happens before you lose directional control during a Vmc demo, then fine. Recover, and then complain about the heat and the altitude.

But make sure you live to complain about blocking rudders and density altitude.

Learn from the mistakes of others.

 

[Westwindflyer]

That was a good message Timebuilder I appreciate the way you put things. You are not trying to make speculation you are just giving an honest and helpful statement

 

[Resume Writer]

Thanks for the birthday wishes for Katelyn, everyone.

Westwind, I am sorry for the loss of your friends.

Kathy

 

[weekendwarrior]

While I am one of the ones who have speculated (only about the cause, not the school) I have to second Westwind's comments. I have a hangar at Deer Valley, and have flown out of there for years. I have flown in the very practice area where this happened. The students and CFI's were always very aware of their surroundings, and I never once saw anything that was unsafe.

They are definately not an outfit that would put a CFI in the back seat and split time, nor would they practice unsafe methods. Perhaps it was just a VMC demo that went wrong, but I don't blame the school or the instructors. Anything could have happened up there at the wrong time, a distraction, gust of wind, who knows.

 

[Mmmmmm Burritos]

In a high density altitude situation in the Seminole (what I usually teach in) we usually get the stall warning before Vmc. I however REFUSE to block the rudder with my foot underneath. What if your student freaks out and stomps so hard it blocks your foot underneath? What if you can't get your foot out and on the top of the rudder where it belongs in enough time to save it? That's just too many "what ifs" for me.

If we hit the stall warning first (hopefully the stall warning system is working correctly, that is another issue), we will abort the demo and then try again using NO BANK. Keep the wings level, and Vmc then rises 6-10 kts. This is because you're reducing the effectiveness of the rudder aerodynamically by washing it out a bit in the sideslip we've created with no bank.

Always keep your hands on the power controls during a Vmc demo. If it yaws just a bit too much, cut the throttles or even the mixtures. Yaw problem solved.

Also remember Vmc decreases with altitude, so it's not always the higher the better. I prefer to do these demos right at 3000 AGL.

Please fly safely and do not block the rudder travel by placing your foot underneath it.

I am in no way speculating, but this is one thing I believe needs to be emphasized more in the MEI traning.

 

[medic&cfi]

Please tell me that you guys that think blueline is the speed at which the airplane "VMCs" or that VMC is "redline" are not flying light twins . . .

Blueline is single engine VySE. You WANT to be at blueline in a twin with one fx during a climb.

Mmmmmm Burritos: are you kidding? Who blocks a rudder with their foot underneath? My gosh. You simply put your foot on top of the dead foot rudder thereby limiting the travel of the good foot rudder. I would never keep my hands on the power levers during this demo. Keep them on the mixtures, like you said. It's much easier to chop the mixtures smash their frozen hands off the power levers, bring the mixtures back up and the engines never stop turning.

 

[Resume Writer]

I have a hangar at Deer Valley, and have flown out of there for years.

My parents have had a hanger at Deer Valley for years, too! While they have had a Baron in the past, I think they have a 182 and maybe a 170. (not sure about the 170, I have not ever seen that plane they have) I wonder if you have bumped into them?

Kathy

 

[FN FAL]

wouldn't it be red line for Vmc? must have been quite a ride to see Vmc happen that high. You would think since it is certified at max power, aft cg, max weight, and sea level that Vmc shouldn't happen too much above redline (I'd assume, although i'm no aeronautical engineer, that the altitude gain would pretty much cancel the lesser weight loss). scary stuff an unfeathered prop is.

True! We weren't at "VMC". However, a very unexpected and abrupt loss of power in the right engine, with full power on the left, will still cause a strong yawing action... if you are not expecting it and especially if you are thinking your check airman pulled an engine on you. Plus, any plane that loses 80% of its horse power is bound to "decelerate".

As much as you would expect that a SH!T HOT aviator would have just started doing the ROTE, FULL, CLEAN, BLUE, IDENTIFY, VERIFY, FIX or FEATHER sequence...I decided to ease back on what was making us yaw, till we got some airspeed and untill the plane was settled down. You can fault that decision all you want, but bringing the throttles back caused the right engine to come back to life...NOT DOING THE ROTE VERIFYING OF... FULL MIXTURES, FULL PROPS, FULL THROTTLES...(we were already configured for the stall, so there was no need to re-do what was already done and I did not need to IDENTIFY or VERIFY...I KNEW the right engine fumbled!

The immediate action drill to recover from imminant loss of control, is to do what ever it takes to regain control. In our case it was to stop the yawing, stop the rolling and stop whatever the hell it was that was causing it...because we were a second away from rolling on our backs. We may have not been AT or BELOW VMC, but we were about one fourth of our way into an uncommanded roll at a very slow speed and the trend of an airplane that HAS lost 80% of it's power is to decelerate.

It might not have been a text book flight school recovery, but at least we didn't go down on our backs in a flat spin with the check airman pointing to some useless information in a PTS.

I'm sure if the 135 check airman had any problems with how this went down, I wouldn't have passed the ride.

 

[Timebuilder]

I however REFUSE to block the rudder with my foot underneath.

I had never heard of putting the foot UNDER the rudder pedal. All you have to do is to press on the opposite rudder. It's easier than putting your foot under the "same" rudder pedal as the student. You can push against his effort on the opposite pedal, and push as hard as he does to limit travel if you like.

I can't think of a reason why one would approach this by putting a foot under the pedal.

I agree that Westwind, and it's close "cousin" on the same field, are probably good quality schools. A little pricey, yes. I had looked into instructing at both of them just a couple of months before 9-11. The people I spoke with seemed professional.

Be careful out there guys. You have to approach piston twins with a lot of respect. Expect the worst every time, and you will have an edge that may save your life.

 

[Mmmmmm Burritos]

Mmmmmm Burritos: are you kidding? Who blocks a rudder with their foot underneath? My gosh. You simply put your foot on top of the dead foot rudder thereby limiting the travel of the good foot rudder.

You'd be surprised what I've heard before. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that's the worst idea... ever. I just assumed that "blocking the rudder" would mean doing that. I've never thought of it beyond that. In the multiengine training I've been through (and it's been from a few different sources), we always increased Vmc by limiting the bank to zero.

I can see where the blocking the opposite rudder on top would work fine, but that would make my leg tired as the MEI

I also don't believe it's a bad idea to do Vmc demos with a rear passenger. An aft CG will increase Vmc. A higher weight doesnt affect Vmc unless you're in a bank. Only in a bank will higher weight lower the Vmc more than a lighter weight, and the more bank, the lower Vmc. The higher weight will increase the stall speed slightly, but so will higher altitude. Altitude also decreases Vmc, and there will be a point when Vmc is lower than stall speed, especially in the Seminole. Bad area to be in.

I would walk out on a limb and actually say a Vmc demo is safer with a rear passenger. It'll spread the Vmc and stall speed apart, especially if you hold zero bank. Then you actually see the yaw and recover as fast as humanly possible with hands on mixtures ready to pull.

The problem arises if you go too far and the airplane begins a spin. Then an aft CG would make the recovery more difficult.

Now of course an aft CG is only good for increasing Vmc to make the Vmc demo safer by spreading the gap between Vmc and stall speed. Any regular flight when an engine quits, you would want a light plane with a forward CG for the best combination of performance and controllability.

 

[CitationLover]

An aft CG will increase Vmc.

Airplanes are certified at full aft cg if i remember correctly. Thus all else being the same, with only the cg changing, the indicated Vmc (redline) should be lower.

ie redline is the maximum Vmc with regard to cg changes only.

 

[Mmmmmm Burritos]

Yeah I know. I meant in relation to a forward CG, an aft CG will increase Vmc. The red radial line Vmc is pretty useless anyway in real life since Vmc can change +/- 20 kts pretty easily. .