PL21 Hawker with FMS v4.0

[Beechjetr]

Does anyone have the FMS v4.0(WAAS) upgrade completed on their PL21 Hawker yet? We had it done about 6 months ago, and I can't get the Long Range Cruise LSK to appear (PERF-ACT VNAV page 2/3).

Thanks

 

[ttflyer]

Does anyone have the FMS v4.0(WAAS) upgrade completed on their PL21 Hawker yet? We had it done about 6 months ago, and I can't get the Long Range Cruise LSK to appear (PERF-ACT VNAV page 2/3).

Thanks

I don't currently fly a Hawker, so I don't have an answer to your question - but I do have one for you. Did WAAS enable you to fly GPS approaches to LPV minimums? On our PL21 airplane (not a Hawker), it does not and I'm just trying to figure out what the actual benefit to this "upgrade" is.

Thanks

 

[BoilerUP]

Uhhh....if you truly have WAAS then you should be able to fly RNAV GPS LPV approaches.

Inside of 2 miles from the FAF on an RNAV approach with LPV minimums, you'd get a LPV APCH (or something similar) annunciation/indication on the PFD instead of the LNAV-only GPS APCH annunciation/indication.

You might need to check your FMS and make sure it defaults to LPV minima on appropriate approaches, vs. defaulting to LNAV.

 

[ttflyer]

Uhhh....if you truly have WAAS then you should be able to fly RNAV GPS LPV approaches.

Inside of 2 miles from the FAF on an RNAV approach with LPV minimums, you'd get a LPV APCH (or something similar) annunciation/indication on the PFD instead of the LNAV-only GPS APCH annunciation/indication.

You might need to check your FMS and make sure it defaults to LPV minima on appropriate approaches, vs. defaulting to LNAV.

That's kinda my point. According to our tech rep, WAAS on our airplane (challenger 300) only gives us automatic RAIM prediction (WOW!) and a few other things - but not LPV approaches. The way it was explained, it's not a WAAS problem, it's an aircraft certification problem. Now, it's possible our tech rep is wrong. It's also possible Bombardier is behind everyone else on getting the 300's PL21 certified. My question is - does everyone else with PL21 + WAAS have LPV mins approved or not?

 

[BoilerUP]

My question is - does everyone else with PL21 + WAAS have LPV mins approved or not?

Yup, our 2009 CJ2+ was delivered in Wichita with WAAS LPV capability.

When you say tech rep, are you referring to Bombardier or Collins? I cannot believe a $20M+ supermid that allegedly has WAAS capability isn't able to fly LPV. If BCS is telling you one thing, ask Collins and see what they have to say about it - wouldn't be the first time an OEM and vendor weren't on the same sheet of music.

Do you have an AFM supplement for your FMS that mentions anything about WAAS or LPV capability in your boxes?

Also, what PFD indications do you see when flying RNAV approaches?

 

[Beechjetr]

I think your tech rep is getting some "words" confused. I'm guessing your CL30 has Collins GPS-4000S GPS receivers. The GPS-4000S is the GPS receiver that is WAAS capable.

When we received the WAAS upgrade, it included upgrading our GPS from 4000A's to 4000S's. It also included new GPS antennas, an FMS software upgrade (v3.3.1 to v4.0), and some other changes to the FMC's hardware (the FMC's were sent out and came back with a new part number). There was also a AFM supplement added that described the SBAS operation and how to fly the airplane to LPV minimums.

During an LPV approach, the PFD diplays "LPV" at least 2nm from the FAF. The vertical and lateral deviation sensitivity then starts to continuously increase towards the MAP.

There were some other FMS operations that changed with the v4.0 upgrade. It enanble multiple "same type" approaches to a runways (ILS Z, Y, X etc.). It enabled a Temperature Compensation function for RNAV approaches. The GPS 4000S also eliminates the requirement for a RAIM prediction check during a RNAV direct routing/SID/STAR. And finally, a LRC performance function on the PERF menu.

It's pretty slick. It was not cheap.

 

[SabreFlyR]

I think your tech rep is getting some "words" confused. I'm guessing your CL30 has Collins GPS-4000S GPS receivers. The GPS-4000S is the GPS receiver that is WAAS capable.

When we received the WAAS upgrade, it included upgrading our GPS from 4000A's to 4000S's. It also included new GPS antennas, an FMS software upgrade (v3.3.1 to v4.0), and some other changes to the FMC's hardware (the FMC's were sent out and came back with a new part number). There was also a AFM supplement added that described the SBAS operation and how to fly the airplane to LPV minimums.

During an LPV approach, the PFD diplays "LPV" at least 2nm from the FAF. The vertical and lateral deviation sensitivity then starts to continuously increase towards the MAP.

There were some other FMS operations that changed with the v4.0 upgrade. It enanble multiple "same type" approaches to a runways (ILS Z, Y, X etc.). It enabled a Temperature Compensation function for RNAV approaches. The GPS 4000S also eliminates the requirement for a RAIM prediction check during a RNAV direct routing/SID/STAR. And finally, a LRC performance function on the PERF menu.

It's pretty slick. It was not cheap.

About $68K - $70K from what I hear to do both gps's and fms's. The WAAS upgrade alone for the 4000A to the "S" is enough to make you sick.

 

[ttflyer]

I think your tech rep is getting some "words" confused. I'm guessing your CL30 has Collins GPS-4000S GPS receivers. The GPS-4000S is the GPS receiver that is WAAS capable.

When we received the WAAS upgrade, it included upgrading our GPS from 4000A's to 4000S's. It also included new GPS antennas, an FMS software upgrade (v3.3.1 to v4.0),

I think (maybe?) they are trying to sell us the the GPS-4000S receivers without the FMS upgrade (because I don't think it's available yet). We don't have any WAAS capability and I think we are going to wait until Bombardier gets the whole thing accepted and certified before we bother... I was just curious if anybody had it yet with PL21.

Yup, our 2009 CJ2+ was delivered in Wichita with WAAS LPV capability.

When you say tech rep, are you referring to Bombardier or Collins? I cannot believe a $20M+ supermid that allegedly has WAAS capability isn't able to fly LPV.

If you can't believe that, then you've never delt with Bombardier before. Bombardier says they are waiting for Collins. Collins says they are waiting for Bombardier. The important thing is that the customer gets to wait - It doesn't matter how they make customers wait, as long as they have to wait...

 

[Beechjetr]

It took some time to get LPV approved in Hawkers. The first time I heard Collins talk about it was at the M&O seminar at NBAA in September 2007. The 750/800XP/850XP/900XP were the first HBC product to get the LPV approval in 3Q 2009.

The Premier is next, and then I hear 3Q 2010 for the Proline IV Beechjets. That's going to be even more money, becuase 2 GPS receivers will be required, and most 400A's have only 1 GPS-4000A.

$70k, plus the DBU-5000 (USB) upgrade. Not required, but it sure is nice. Both J7 World Databases, loaded simultaneously, takes about 18 minutes. You can load the E-charts also while the FMS's are loading.

 

[Beechjetr]

The 750/800XP/850XP/900XP were the first HBC product to get the LPV approval in 3Q 2009.

I take that back. I don't know about the G1000 HBC products.

 

[SabreFlyR]

It took some time to get LPV approved in Hawkers. The first time I heard Collins talk about it was at the M&O seminar at NBAA in September 2007. The 750/800XP/850XP/900XP were the first HBC product to get the LPV approval in 3Q 2009.

The Premier is next, and then I hear 3Q 2010 for the Proline IV Beechjets. That's going to be even more money, becuase 2 GPS receivers will be required, and most 400A's have only 1 GPS-4000A.

$70k, plus the DBU-5000 (USB) upgrade. Not required, but it sure is nice. Both J7 World Databases, loaded simultaneously, takes about 18 minutes. You can load the E-charts also while the FMS's are loading.

That's about another 35K to install the second gps in the Beechjet. We won't be doing that to ours, it goes on the market next week.

The DBU 5000 is nice, I have the PCD 3000, old school cable but I can load the Americas data bases in 15 minutes.