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starvingcfi

starvingcfi

CpApAwM
Joined
Dec 12, 2001
Posts
662
found a 1994 S1-S for sale. 1576 SMOH on a 2000 TBO IO-360. 405 TTAF. 1996 stits paint.

they're asking $32K negotiable. anyone have a ballpark for a reasonable price? anyone with any info of what to look for?

supposedly only been flown sportsman and intermediate with no hard acro. not sure if it's homebuilt or factory.
 
I've been looking in to buying a Pitts or something similar for a little while now. From what I've seen most of the powerplants in these things get overhauled around 1000 hours. I would assumd that with a 2000 tbo the engine has no inverted systems(?). But the all the cooling and heating and general throttle jockeying that goes on during acro I would consider this motor to be borderline run out. Pay close attention to the compression tests on the last few annuals and I would ask if they've had any oil analyses done(and see what kind of metal the thing may be making). Also, why was it painted at only 2 years old? Was there any fabric work done at the time and if so why? Damage history?

It sounds like lowish range for a S-1 that new, but there are things to consider. Keep me posted.
 
just re-read the e-mail. says the oil analysis has always come back clean, but yeah. i know almost 1600 SMOH is really pushing it. kind of why i'm wondering about the pricing. i'm sure that's part of the reason the price is fairly low. how much is an overhaul on a -360?

also, says it has a full inverted system with the option for smoke.
 
IO-360....it's been a while since I've priced them but I would guess in the 15000 dollar range for major. Any word on the compressions?
 
There's a S-1 on ebay right now for about $16k
 
A real S-1-S is longer than an S-1-C. Some S-1-S's are actually S-1-C's with sparcraft S-1-S wings. If you are over 5'9" this may be important.
Most aerobatic engines get OH by 1,000 hours. The 1500 hour 0-360 may have seen light duty most of it's life - then put in the Pitts. It still needs to have the solid or aerobatic crankshaft or you're asking for trouble.
Plenty of S-1-S's for sale under $35,000 if you look.

HEADWIND
 
32k is not a low price.

Aerobatic engines easily make TBO. If they sit a lot, then there is a problem. There isn't much "throttle jockeying" in aerobatics. There is two positions of the throttle - aerobatics, and spin:) FWIW, people that I know run the S-1S wide open all the time and make TBO no problem.

Does it have a composite prop? That would be a requirement for me...

The fabric is 13 years old and will need to be replaced. I would consider intermediate "hard acro". Your doing +6 even in sportsman if you want to win... (in a -B anyway). DEFINITELY have any airplane inspected prior to purchase. There are specific things to look for in a pitts that will require small inspection cuts in the fabric. Check out airbum.com for an article on what to look for in a pitts.

Get an S-1S if you are competing. Don't bother with a -C. An -S will take you to advanced easily...
 
In 2001 I had an AEIO-360 done at Ly-Con. Cost including the new solid crank was right at $18,000. This was Ly-Con's bill only - doesn't include removal ect. It was a '79 with about 1000 total time since new. No remote filter - only a screen. The other poster is right about "throttle-jockeying." Remember when buying a plane the initial cost is only half the story! Good luck!
 
Yeah, I was going to by a -B at one point. I did a spreadsheet to look at the costs associated. YIKES! Its about $200/hour no matter how you cut it - assuming you will put money in an engine and maintenance reserve fund. The cost of the airplane is by far the least.

For example:
I had a 1/4 share in a stearman for $25k. I spend $15k in two years, then sold it for $23.5k. I flew it about 100 hours. Some of that was shared time too, not all solo. So, thats $150/hour...

So, I bought a Roush Mustang instead....
 
32K for an S-1S with a high time motor is a little on the high side.

Check on who built it. I have seen some crazy stuff come out of people's hangars.

Good luck and let us know how it works out?
 
starvingcfi said:
found a 1994 S1-S for sale. 1576 SMOH on a 2000 TBO IO-360. 405 TTAF. 1996 stits paint.

they're asking $32K negotiable. anyone have a ballpark for a reasonable price? anyone with any info of what to look for?

supposedly only been flown sportsman and intermediate with no hard acro. not sure if it's homebuilt or factory.
Click to expand...
I own a Pitts S-1S. I purchased it for 29000 in 2004 with less than 100 SMOH. Most IO-360's flown in aerobatics will need an overhaul around 800-1000 hours. S-1S's in particular are prone to a lower overhaul time because of the lack of a constant speed prop. I can assure you it takes alot of discipline to keep the engine within RPM limits while flying even a Sportsmans level sequence.

S-1S's average around 30k with a midtime ( 400hrs for an aerobatic engine ) engine and airframe.

Briefly- 32K is at least 15-20k to high for this aircraft. Figure 30k minus an overhaul.

Best of luck finding a good Pitts. I got really screwed on mine in different ways. Learn from me if you have more questions. They're a ton of fun if you get a good one.
 
d.fitz said:
32k is not a low price.

Aerobatic engines easily make TBO. If they sit a lot, then there is a problem. There isn't much "throttle jockeying" in aerobatics. There is two positions of the throttle - aerobatics, and spin:) FWIW, people that I know run the S-1S wide open all the time and make TBO no problem.

Does it have a composite prop? That would be a requirement for me...

The fabric is 13 years old and will need to be replaced. I would consider intermediate "hard acro". Your doing +6 even in sportsman if you want to win... (in a -B anyway). DEFINITELY have any airplane inspected prior to purchase. There are specific things to look for in a pitts that will require small inspection cuts in the fabric. Check out airbum.com for an article on what to look for in a pitts.

Get an S-1S if you are competing. Don't bother with a -C. An -S will take you to advanced easily...
Click to expand...
Beg to differ on the throttle jockeying. It seems your flying a "B" as in S-2B. Lucky for you. An S-1S has a fixed pitch prop. If you aren't throttling back on just about every downline or bottom half of a looping figure you will see RPM's well in excess 3000. Not great for engine life. Neither is throttle jockeying- which you must do in order to stay within RPM limits, and is why S-1T's (or 2B's ) were made. Which is also why aerobatic engines with a fixed-pitch prop are much less likely to make TBO.
 
mach3matt said:
Beg to differ on the throttle jockeying. It seems your flying a "B" as in S-2B. Lucky for you. An S-1S has a fixed pitch prop. If you aren't throttling back on just about every downline or bottom half of a looping figure you will see RPM's well in excess 3000. Not great for engine life. Neither is throttle jockeying- which you must do in order to stay within RPM limits, and is why S-1T's (or 2B's ) were made. Which is also why aerobatic engines with a fixed-pitch prop are much less likely to make TBO.
Click to expand...

Sorry man. It may not be recommended but I know quite a few people that run an -S wide open all the time. 3500 RPM's on the down line competing in advanced. All make TBO with no problem.
 
d.fitz said:
Considering these guys have about ten times your total time, I think they know what they are talking about.
Click to expand...

Maybe they do, but do you know what your talking about? Or are you just pulling 10g's out of your azz.
There are to many people on this board that tend to embellish and exaggerate actual figures and numbers.
 
d.fitz said:
Sorry man. It may not be recommended but I know quite a few people that run an -S wide open all the time. 3500 RPM's on the down line competing in advanced. All make TBO with no problem.
Click to expand...
Okay, I would love to know the secret of these advanced catagory competitors "all" making TBO. Any chance one could send me an email?

[email protected]
 
Maybe you should read the IAC Technical Manuals 1,2,3 and 4. There is a lot of good information about operating and maintaining a Pitts S1 aircraft.

I fly Advanced in a Pitts S1 and try and limit my engine rpm to about 3300. Anything higher than that and you're just making noise.

The 1st. engine run went to 1000 hours without any problems. The 2nd. run was at 870 when I found a crack in the prop flange. It was the light weight crank with 1870 TTSN.
 
I fly Advanced but never ran a Pitts all the way to TBO since I traded up to an Extra.

I did fly another Extra 300S that has 1200TT on the engine and was flown UNLIMITED and several airshows and it is still running strong.


I also have a new Pitts with 200TT. It needed a new motor at 150TT due to the former owner running it out of oil....I would rather have a Pitts flown a regualr basis then one that sat as a hangar Queen.


One thing is for sure, if you want a Pitts, join IAC and find a Chapter to join as well, go get some dual to make sure YOU REALLY want to fly a Pitts (some guys just are not up to it...and that's ok to find out before you buy one) Talk to REAL Pitts owners before trusting anyone on this board.
 
Thank you. I will read them. The times you quote are still consistant with what I suggested with the start of this thread. Around 1000hrs on a fixed-pitch prop IO-360 doing aerobatics. The guy I orignally was addressing was looking at purchasing a Pitts with over 1500SMOH. My recommendation to be wary of this still holds. Thanks for the links. Where do you fly out of? I'm out of DVT ( Phoenix).
 
Pitts advice

Go ahead and make a ridiculous offer on any single seat pitts. They are not moving on the market. If a guy needs the money he will sell. Most guys can't afford to have one and maintain it to standrads for very long. See note below.

Always plan on overhaul being well less than TBO, for all listed reasons. C-172 and C-152s at a flight school may make overhaul, but a rarely flown airplane that is ran hard and flown through aerobatics is a different animal.

Buy the best airplane you can. Maintenance is extemely expensive. Recovering th plane, rebuilding a wing, and working on an engine add up. Down time is what will kill you though. Trying to find a guy to work on a Pitts or any fabric airplane is tough, and these guys cahrge a premium unless they are your buddies.

Only a fool or a wealthy man owns an airplane outside of a partnership. Find a few expert pilots and poney up on a Pitts together. Seek out the best two seat training for your partners and require recureent checks. Good Luck

Former Pitts S-1S owner

PS. I bought and sold my Pitts S-1S for around 25K. Spent quite a bit on hangar, routine mx, insurance, and gas. I figured 1900/yr for insurance, 3000yr for hangar. 1000-3000 yr for mx, and 4500yr for gas/oil.
10-12K a year to own and operate my 25K Pitts with no major mx issues. 100 hours per year. I later dropped full coverage (liability $600/yr). You might be able to reduce hangar or mx expenses. Maybe get it down to $5-6K per year. Good Luck.
I now own a 2004 Super D, and it runs about 23K a year for paying the bank and all the above listed expenses.
 
You guys think a 6'3" 250 country boy could fit in a Pitts?

I've been in an S2C but cannot afford one..

Thinking S1 or S2.. Not totally sure yet..
 
I am not as big as you and my S1S works, but it's tight. Mine was a S1C before, so it's 3" shorter than a factory S or T. You may try looking at an S2S.
 
Yeh, I'd really like to pick up an S2A or B..

I want a 2 place for sure.

Kinda been looking at Skybolts...
 
Tram said:
Yeh, I'd really like to pick up an S2A or B..

I want a 2 place for sure.

Kinda been looking at Skybolts...
Click to expand...

I got a ride in a Skybolt once but didn't get any hands on time 'cause the owner's wife didn't fly the foreward stick slap wasn't there but it seemed like a nice airplane.

You're a little tall for a Bucker but before you buy any acro airplane Tram, trust me, you need to fly one! Buckers were the plane that the two members of the 300 club cut their teeth on...that's a pretty good recommendation as far as I'm concerened!
 

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