Pinnacle Pilots: "Just wanted to have fun"

[Simon Says]

why is it that regional pilots will be looked at differently?

did they look at "professional" american pilots differently when they took out runway lights in denver this winter? landed in a T/S and overran a runway in little rock? crashed into a mountain in Cali? tore a rudder off an airbus doing exactly what they were trained to do? oh those "professional" delta pilots who forget to set the flaps for takeoff, "professional" eastern pilots who disengage an autopilot and crash in the everglades, etc etc.

cut the "professional" crap here. it was an accident (like all of the above were). we all look like sh!t at our worst moments.

one maxim definitely held true here. there were an unfortunate "chain of events" leading up to this.

UM, your examples are accidents, 3701 was careless and reckless. NO ACCIDENT. Just reading your post, and seeing what you fly scares me. It is not all your fault though, it is the culture you work in. Your company thrives in it. Don't respond to defend this careless and reckless incident either. It will only paint you in a corner and myself along with the others will catagorize you into the same group.

 

[acaTerry]

One point SimonSays forgot to point out was the innacuracy on the EAL crash in the Everglades. The AP was not disconnected by the pilots. If the associated poster had gone under a real CRM training regimen, he'd see stark differences in his examples.
I'm with SimonSyas in that this was pathetically avoidable.

 

[Simon Says]

F/O failed his commercial multi because he left the baggage door open......it wasnt because of his flying ability!

You really need to stop defending your boyfriend.....It makes you look bad, and him even worse. Do you know how many accidents are caused by just leaving a baggage door open on take off.

 

[Biatch5]

actually i'm sorry...now that i think about it....he left the key in the door but had the door closed.....gosh the things you do when ur nervous!

AYYYYYYY PAPI!!!!!!

 

[CitationLover]

UM, your examples are accidents, 3701 was careless and reckless. NO ACCIDENT. Just reading your post, and seeing what you fly scares me. It is not all your fault though, it is the culture you work in. Your company thrives in it. Don't respond to defend this careless and reckless incident either. It will only paint you in a corner and myself along with the others will catagorize you into the same group.

so forgetting to set the flaps for takeoff is an accident?

crashing an airplane into a mountain is an accident?

landing in a thunderstorm with up to 45kt gusts is an accident?

3 PILOTS not flying an airplane in a slow descent while concentrating on one minor problem allowing said airplane to crash in the everglades is an accident?

crashing an airplane due to a dual flameout with the a/c being above the charted max altitude was careless and reckless? seems to me all of the above were also careless and reckless and PREVENTABLE (links of the accident chain).

like these other preventable accidents, this current one will be used to teach pilots. my CRM course taught me to be open minded and finding things in ALL accidents that might be used in my flying habits to change myself. of course, it wasn't a REAL course according to you.

as far EAL: the NTSB concluded that the A/P was on but the mode allowed for unintentional pitch changes (p. 26 of pdf), so in essence it was unintentionally disconnected from an ALT hold mode (sorry for the semantics).
http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR73-14.pdf

"REMARKS- CREW DIDNT MONITOR INST & DETECT UNEXPECTED DESCENT.PREOCCUPIED BY NOSE GR PSN IND SYS MALFUNCTION"

 

[Towelie]

so forgetting to set the flaps for takeoff is an accident?

crashing an airplane into a mountain is an accident?

landing in a thunderstorm with up to 45kt gusts is an accident?

3 PILOTS not flying an airplane in a slow descent while concentrating on one minor problem allowing said airplane to crash in the everglades is an accident?

There may be a certain amount of "carelessness" in every accident but for the love of God, please don't lump 3701 in with other accidents where CRM is a factor.

The accidents you cite could have been prevented. But they were not the result of INTENTIONAL disregard for SOP and common sense. That is the difference.

 

[say again]

A vast majority of all accidents, sadly enough, are avoidable. It's a compound of judgement, decision making, and knowledge. Unfortunately, performing poorly in these areas could be disasterous, as proven time and time again. It's not just "new" 2000 hr. pilots making poor decisions, but experienced 10000 hr. pilots as well.

 

[Wasted]

like these other preventable accidents, this current one will be used to teach pilots. my CRM course taught me to be open minded and finding things in ALL accidents that might be used in my flying habits to change myself.

Yeah, like "Don't F**k around."

 

[Simon Says]

There may be a certain amount of "carelessness" in every accident but for the love of God, please don't lump 3701 in with other accidents where CRM is a factor.

The accidents you cite could have been prevented. But they were not the result of INTENTIONAL disregard for SOP and common sense. That is the difference.

Thank you for trying to get my point across. Careless and reckless is not an accident. Just like the guys that get loaded up on dope and go fly an airplane to be only plowing dirt a few minutes afterwards. Is that an accident? No, that is careless and reckless.

I find a contributing cause to this accident to be the Pinnacle's culture. Not the fault of any pilot, but definately an obbstical to be overcome by each and every pilot on the property.

 

[CitationLover]

A vast majority of all accidents, sadly enough, are avoidable. It's a compound of judgement, decision making, and knowledge. Unfortunately, performing poorly in these areas could be disasterous, as proven time and time again. It's not just "new" 2000 hr. pilots making poor decisions, but experienced 10000 hr. pilots as well.

this was my point as well. everyone just dumps on these guys (perhaps rightfully so) and points to them being low time in type and being just "regional" pilots.

in all likelihood (perhaps we will never know), the pulling g's, "horseplay", etc had no bearing on the accident other than to display the lack of common sense this crew had. exceeding a limitation caused this dual flameout and unfortunately it had to end like it did.

as far as this being intentional disregard towelie, i doubt it. my guess is in their minds 410 was the max certified altitude and they thought simply they were empty and could go up there (ie thought only weight was the factor). unfortunately they were wrong. hopefully it will cause a lot of changes in peoples minds about the capabilities of their a/c.

 

[Wasted]

this was my point as well. everyone just dumps on these guys (perhaps rightfully so) and points to them being low time in type and being just "regional" pilots.

in all likelihood (perhaps we will never know), the pulling g's, "horseplay", etc had no bearing on the accident other than to display the lack of common sense this crew had. exceeding a limitation caused this dual flameout and unfortunately it had to end like it did.

as far as this being intentional disregard towelie, i doubt it. my guess is in their minds 410 was the max certified altitude and they thought simply they were empty and could go up there (ie thought only weight was the factor). unfortunately they were wrong. hopefully it will cause a lot of changes in peoples minds about the capabilities of their a/c.

Gimme a break. So you think they unintentionally did not check the performance charts to see whether they were capable at 39K weight of reaching FL410. So the captain unintentionally disregarded guidance on climb profile. So the captain unintentionally switched seats with the FO. So the captain unintentionally went into the galley in the middle of a critical flight regime. Quit making excuses for them. They were running around with scissors and got their eyes poked out. There's no worthwhile CRM lesson here. If this one is ever brought up in CRM class, the most an instructor can say about it is "enough said."

 

[CitationLover]

Gimme a break. So you think they unintentionally did not check the performance charts to see whether they were capable at 39K weight of reaching FL410. So the captain unintentionally disregarded guidance on climb profile. So the captain unintentionally switched seats with the FO. So the captain unintentionally went into the galley in the middle of a critical flight regime. Quit making excuses for them. They were running around with scissors and got their eyes poked out. There's no worthwhile CRM lesson here. If this one is ever brought up in CRM class, the most an instructor can say about it is "enough said."

my point is wasted that it is a "CRM Issue" to talk about f#$%ing a flight attendant with a j/s and forgetting to set the flaps, but what these guys did was unforgiveable? you give me a break dude.

 

[Wasted]

my point is wasted that it is a "CRM Issue" to talk about f#$%ing a flight attendant with a j/s and forgetting to set the flaps, but what these guys did was unforgiveable? you give me a break dude.

Those guys who forgot to set the flaps while talking about f'ing the flight attendant shouldn't be forgiven either. So there, you got your break.

All the so called "CRM" lessons here that you think you see, checking charts, running the right checklists, telling the truth to ATC, staying at your seat in a critical flight situation, etc., are merely symptoms. Symptoms of the main problem that the captain was horsing around and not taking his job seriously, garnished on top with a certain amount of ineptitude. That CRJ was just a big fat toy for him to play with. If there is one CRM lesson here, it is "Don't horse around...dude."

 

[Towelie]

as far as this being intentional disregard towelie, i doubt it. my guess is in their minds 410 was the max certified altitude and they thought simply they were empty and could go up there (ie thought only weight was the factor). unfortunately they were wrong. hopefully it will cause a lot of changes in peoples minds about the capabilities of their a/c.

If there only crime was failure to reference a power chart, I might agree with you. But besides the obvious lack of high altitude knowledge, these morons never once attempted to do ANYTHING by the book.

This not a case of one missed item (forgetting to set the flaps) this was two clowns who were intentionally showboating until they pushed it too far.

You can't honestly say this is just another CRM accident. If you don't realize that, then more Pinnacle pilots are doomed to repeat this same tragedy.

Please pull your head out of the sand. Thank you.

 

[chperplt]

Symptoms of the main problem that the captain was horsing around and not taking his job seriously

Change the word Captain here to crew and I agree with you.. The FO is just as much to blame here as the guy in the left seat.

I didn't read anything in the transcripts that lead me to belive the FO had a problem with anything that they did. Did you hear the FO say "Captain, I'm not comfortable with this" or anything else to fix the situation? Maybe that goes back to the fact that he should still of been in Cessna's and was simply along for the ride.