Pinnacle mgmt. bashes Mesaba

[PCL_128]

It means that Pinnacle is once again being whipsawed by NWA and a Mesaba pilot group that sold their brothers out for a few new RJ's

I would like to emphasize that this is NOT the general opinion of the 9E pilot group.

 

[Dodge]

Thanks to all the 9E pilots for their continued support. I know our current book is not where you would like to see it in the rate dept. I also know that without you guys actually experiencing it, it's hard to believe, but the other sections in our contract make it very tolerable. I am looking forward to doing some laps with ya in MEM when the time comes, to advance well beyond our contract.

 

[NEWSOUTH]

This is not a flame.


Our management is blaming Mesaba for undercutting our company to distract the pilots from our Management failures.


This is not a flame either.



I hope we go on strike.
I hope NWA pulls the 10 CRJs that our stockholders are not guaranteed.
I hope NWA tells XJ to fly them.
I hope XJ struggles and stresses about Scabbing and Termination the way my family struggle and stressed when my MEC left a loop hole in their XJ strike program that would have left me with no option but to fall down in the
jetbridge and hurt my back in order to cover my backside from termination or being called a Scab.

Then you will feel my pain when I read a 26,000 viewed thread:"pinnacle class cancelled" of XJ bashing the company that I have chosen to work for.

Your thread will read: "ME-SCAB-A 9E CRJ"

This really is not a flame. This is to say that your strike threat affected my family. Your fat mouthing has hurt my pride as a employee. I hope you are tested with flying our ten airplanes if we strike... I hope you fail. Good day.

 

[PCL_128]

Oh good grief. I've never heard such a load of BS in my life. You were never under threat of being called a SCAB and you know it. The strike center was set up and ready to tell all of us whether a flight was struck work or not and you certainly did NOT have to fall and hurt yourself to get out of flying it if it was. The two MECs communicated quite well the whole procedure for verifying struck work and you would NOT have been terminated for refusing such flying.

You also need to grow some thicker skin if that thread really hurt your feelings so much. Just because a few jerks from XJ bash PCL on this board doesn't mean that the whole XJ pilot group feels that way. I commuted on XJ for 2 years and never had a single problem with any XJ crew. All of them were perfect gentlemen and complete professionals. Wish I could say the same for our pilot group now that we have a few morons denying NW pilots the jumpseat.

We need to be building our relationship with the XJ pilots, not tearing it down. In a couple of years when it's time for us to walk a picket line we will need their support. Don't destroy the relationship we have with XJ with your mindless ramblings.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

This is not a flame.


Our management is blaming Mesaba for undercutting our company to distract the pilots from our Management failures.


This is not a flame either.



I hope we go on strike.
I hope NWA pulls the 10 CRJs that our stockholders are not guaranteed.
I hope NWA tells XJ to fly them.
I hope XJ struggles and stresses about Scabbing and Termination the way my family struggle and stressed when my MEC left a loop hole in their XJ strike program that would have left me with no option but to fall down in the
jetbridge and hurt my back in order to cover my backside from termination or being called a Scab.

Then you will feel my pain when I read a 26,000 viewed thread:"pinnacle class cancelled" of XJ bashing the company that I have chosen to work for.

Your thread will read: "ME-SCAB-A 9E CRJ"

This really is not a flame. This is to say that your strike threat affected my family. Your fat mouthing has hurt my pride as a employee. I hope you are tested with flying our ten airplanes if we strike... I hope you fail. Good day.

Thanks for handling this like an adult.

 

[Dodge]

Newsouth,
You must of been the 9E guy my wife had on her flight during our contract talks. You flat out told her that if your management told you to fly a struck work route, you would have to do it. Come on dude, you're better than that.

 

[crjgearbiatch]

I hope you are tested with flying our ten airplanes if we strike... I hope you fail. Good day.

I've always casually observed from afar, but man... had to say something.

I just wanted to add that this guy's point of view is pretty extreme, and I've never flown with anyone or heard anyone in a crew room that harbored this much resentment toward Mesaba pilots.

I wish you guys all the best. Congrats on the new jets.

 

[Towelie]

To all:

I'm sorry I started this thread. I should have known that even with a disclaimer, this would get personal. I was only making an attempt to point out something between management groups. Even in doing that, I myself got too emotional saying "bashes Mesaba." For that, I am sorry. You can see the games being played as Pinnacle management tells their employees that they would never do something like that, and then telling the public that they are so happy for Mesaba. Nice. BUT... don't forget they are a puppet just like XJ with NWA being the puppetmaster.


To PCL 128:

Thank you for taking the high road. I don't know who you are personally, but I hope when I come out to picket with you guys that we meet up. You are a class act.


To my XJ brothers:

Don't do as I did. Read and count to 10 before you post. I wish I would have done that. Pinnacle management has obviously decided to play the pilots against each other even more to squeeze what they can out of this contract. Let's give them what support we can and try to ignore the management b.s. I wish I would have done that.


To NEWSOUTH:

I'm sorry you feel that way. It sucks. We were on the flip side of this, where you soon will be. Hopefully we will help you guys like you did us. Just don't make this personal, as we will try not to do.


To all 9E drivers:

Go get 'em! Do what you need to do. Remember the word "Whipsaw" as the management groups try to squeeze you. The best advice I ever heard was from an NWA pilot who said, "Even though this sucks now, it will be over one day and things will be OK. Remember, this is a marathon and not a sprint. Be patient." Good luck guys.

Peace all,

Towelie

*climbs off of soapbox sheepishly, as he started this whole dumb thread*

 

[PCL_128]

Don't do as I did. Read and count to 10 before you post.

Well, it just wouldn't be flightinfo if we did that.

 

[Simon Says]

Just to make it clear to all that reads this thread.

Mesaba pilots did not take any concessions for taking on new airplanes. As for what Mesaba Managment did to get the new airplanes I do not know nor do I control or vote on.

Hey here is a thought, mabey the SLT took concessions themselves to get the new aircraft.

 

[Lear70]

I just wanted to add that this guy's point of view is pretty extreme, and I've never flown with anyone or heard anyone in a crew room that harbored this much resentment toward Mesaba pilots.

Guess you weren't around the crew room and lounge after they ratified their current T.A. with 40-59 seat rates that were, at DOS, LOWER than ours, and even now are within 2-3% for CA's, with MAYBE 3-5% more in work rules.

When they signed that agreement, it made our negotiating committee's job just that much harder - if you don't believe it, email one of them and ask how our management will now try to wave those rates in our faces when we're demanding 20-30% more.

I don't think most pilots are extreme as NewSouth in their views, but I certainly understand and in many ways identify with the underlying sentiment - they settled for far less than they should have knowing full well that was the next fleet type they were getting (if they didn't know it they were displaying EXTREME ignorance in the industry).

I'm glad they're growing; I'm unhappy at the reason why and how it impacts the rest of the industry.

 

[RampTower]

Our level of arguing is reaching levels that of the Delta Connection Family.

 

[kmox29]

Yeah,

We should have gotten more, you're right. Thank God for Pinnacle's contract upholding the industry. Let's see, what did we have to fight during our negotiations?

1. We started negotiations within months of 9/11
2. We had ~250 pilots on furlough
3. Mesa had just had to accept a sub par contract in order to stave off Freedom
4. MAIR Holdings (our "parent") purchased Big Sky with the promise of growth
5. NWA was threatening to cancel all of the Avro flying
6. 5 Avros were parked in the desert
7. Pinnacle was just awarded their first batch (50) of CRJ's
8. Air Wisconson was in the process of getting concessions from their pilots
9. The whole economy, let alone our industry, was at a low point

With all that, we didn't accept any concessions (unless retaining the single FO pay rate a concession...then one) in our TA. In fact, every section was either maintained or improved. I know we might have gotten more had we called an official strike (we did shut the company down for 2 days).

I support Pinnacle pilots 110%. There is A LOT of work to do in your contract. When it's all complete and you have everything we have in ours:

1. Full 1st year pay (75 hour guarantee) during training + hotel
2. 11 days off per month minimum (you might have this already, I don't know)
3. 100% trip guarantee
4. Block or better
5. 4 hour minimum day
6. A retirement plan (401K, etc.) that's on par with us

I'm sure there are more improvements needed. However, as I said above, I fully support you guys. I hope you get all of that and more. Just be careful who you are pointing your finger at accusing of making your negotiations more difficult. If you think Mesaba's pay rates will be the only ones brought up as a Management talking point, then I suggest you pull your head out of the sand and look around. There are plenty of other carrier's contracts worse than Mesaba's.

 

[PCL_128]

Our level of arguing is reaching levels that of the Delta Connection Family.

Oh, please no! Guys, the Mesaba contract was signed well over a year ago now. It's time to stop bickering about it. It's done with. The pilots voted and they were satisfied with what they got. They certainly didn't take concessions or undercut us, so I don't really think it's any of our business. I'm far more concerned with the pay freeze that CMR just took than I am with the Mesaba contract.

 

[Lear70]

They certainly didn't take concessions or undercut us, so I don't really think it's any of our business.

Ummm, take a look at their contract again. Their 1st year DOS rates DID undercut us, if only by pennies, but the hourly wages were less.

I'm far more concerned with the pay freeze that CMR just took than I am with the Mesaba contract.

You might re-examine that approach. Our management won't even LOOK at Comair's rates and talk about them in comparison to ours, but I guarandamTEE you they're going to point out Mesaba's rates and say, "Look, they just got these a year ago and you're asking for HOW much more? That's just not realistic and we have to compete within the NWA family and blah blah blah..."

Mesaba's our whipping post, and while mostly NOT the fault of their pilots (management is who plays that whipsaw game), their pilots must accept responsibility for agreeing to the CRJ rates they're going to have to live with for nearly another decade. By the time it's all over I bet the CRJ's will account for 50% or more of their fleet and then where will they be?

Will our pilot group sell out? Possibly; it's going to be close I'm sure. I'll be one of the ones beating the strike drum until the last vote is counted and I'm sure all my coworkers will affirm just how millitant I am... I walked the line with the Mesaba pilots in the freezing a*s cold in DTW and would gladly do it again, but it's time to stop the downward spiral.

 

[BighitterLama]

To Lear70...I appreciate your effort on the board, but, take it from someone whoa has been around this gig for a very long time...you are way off on many of your points...honestly. The marathon analogy is one to remember.

 

[NEWSOUTH]

Oh good grief. I've never heard such a load of BS in my life. You were never under threat of being called a SCAB and you know it. The strike center was set up and ready to tell all of us whether a flight was struck work or not and you certainly did NOT have to fall and hurt yourself to get out of flying it if it was. The two MECs communicated quite well the whole procedure for verifying struck work and you would NOT have been terminated for refusing such flying.

ACTUALLY, I RECALL A POST THAT SEEDED THE FORUM ABOUT 9E ETHICS. THE XJ PILOT SAID HE HEARD A 9E PILOT GLOATING ABOUT DOING THEIR FLYING. FLAME: I THINK SO. SOMEBODY JUST COMMENTED ON ANOTHER STORY OF 9E PILOTS DOING THE SAME. IT'S JUST THE MENTALITY OF THE POST THAT SEEDS THE FORUM ABOUT 9E PILOT ETHICS THAT TICKS ME OFF. AFTER ALL THAT SUPPORT.

RE-READ THE STRIKE CENTER HANDOUT. LOOPHOLE DOES EXIST. AND I'VE SEEN PILOTS GET FIRED FOR ALOT LESS THAN REFUSING A FLIGHT ASSIGHNMENT.

You also need to grow some thicker skin if that thread really hurt your feelings so much. Just because a few jerks from XJ bash PCL on this board doesn't mean that the whole XJ pilot group feels that way. I commuted on XJ for 2 years and never had a single problem with any XJ crew. All of them were perfect gentlemen and complete professionals. Wish I could say the same for our pilot group now that we have a few morons denying NW pilots the jumpseat.

ALWAYS A GREAT EXPERIENCE ON XJ. HAVE MANY FREINDS AT XJ. THIS IS HOW I KNOW THE BASHING IS HOW THEY REALLY FEEL ABOUT 9E PILOTS.


We need to be building our relationship with the XJ pilots, not tearing it down. In a couple of years when it's time for us to walk a picket line we will need their support. Don't destroy the relationship we have with XJ with your mindless ramblings

VERY PROUD OF THE 9E PILOTS CONGRATULATING XJ ON THEIR GROWTH. JUST CAN'T REMEMBER THE OPPOSITE. DO A SEARCH AND REMIND ME.

 

[RampTower]

Lear70

Mesaba's vote on the 2004 TA was fairly close. It definitely wasn't a landslide but those that voted NO know who they are. And although probably a little happier these days because of the growth announcement, they will not forget what happened at the time of the strike deadline and the so-called "virtual strike". Lets not get into that fiasco anymore, it's done, over, closed. It's a learning experience but lets move on. But don't crucify every Mesaba pilot for passing our current contract- remember that nearly 40% of the pilots voted NO and at least that percentage maybe more didn't agree with the strike deadline decision. If you want to be heard, go to our MEC chairman or even Woerthless.

 

[LivinDaDream]

This is UN-F*%&ING believable.

First... ANY Idiot "XJ or 9E" that gets on here and bashes the other pilot group OR claims how great their pilot group behaved is full of crap. There is plenty of bad and good behavior to go around on both sides.

I'll focus on the good.

I am confident that most 9E pilots would have stood their ground and refused to fly struck work. Could or would some have been fired..Maybe. But they would have been considered hostages of a LEGAL job action and would have be defended til the end. There is plenty of legal precedence on this.

Many XJ guys had positve comments for the 9E pilots when you stood your ground on the equal pay for 44/50 seat aircraft.

In 1997, the XJ pilots integrated a large number of 9E pilots into our seniority list to save them from the streets. Every one of them has the seniority to be AVRO Cpts today.

Many 9E pilots showed up in MSP and DTW to support us in our rallies and picketing.

As an XJ pilot, I am confident that most of our pilots will refuse anything our MEC's agree is struck work should you be forced down that road.

I wish you well and strongly encourage both sides to stop this stupid debate. This is the purpose and result of whipsawing. Every time we knock eachother, we play into management's hands. Let's not act like the idiots that management thinks we are.

 

[PCL_128]

Ummm, take a look at their contract again. Their 1st year DOS rates DID undercut us, if only by pennies, but the hourly wages were less.

Their rates were less for only a few months. And besides, as you said, it was only pennies. It's nothing to get so upset about.

Will our pilot group sell out? Possibly; it's going to be close I'm sure. I'll be one of the ones beating the strike drum until the last vote is counted and I'm sure all my coworkers will affirm just how millitant I am... I walked the line with the Mesaba pilots in the freezing a*s cold in DTW and would gladly do it again, but it's time to stop the downward spiral.

Believe it or not, I'm just as militant as you are when it comes to our next contract. I just don't see the benefit in bashing XJ's contract more than a year after it was signed. They had their chance to vote, and we'll have ours.

 

[NEWSOUTH]

LIVINGDADREAM:


I agree....well said.

 

[Lear70]

To Lear70...I appreciate your effort on the board, but, take it from someone whoa has been around this gig for a very long time...you are way off on many of your points...honestly. The marathon analogy is one to remember.

Way off? Possibly. You'd be surprised how many supporting PM's I get thanking me for putting this stuff out here. I've been right on just about every prediction regarding our companies since I started posting on this board - go back and do a search and I think you'll find I have my finger pretty close to the pulse of industry reality.

PCL, the reason I'm still pissed about their rates is because they were LESS than ours 5 YEARS AFTER OURS WERE SIGNED!! Who cares if it was only pennies, the point is THEY WERE LESS and should have been about 20% higher right off the bat. They rolled over on CRJ rates to get industry-leading Saab rates when most of them knew (or should have known) that the Saab was a dying breed within the time scope of their proposed contract and they were going to get CRJ's next. I said it then, I said it two weeks ago before the announcement, and I'll say it again now.

RampTower, you're right, I know a lot of guys and gals DID hold the line and I thank them for it. I have three good friends who work there and know just how angry they are; in their words, they feel "sold out by their fellow pilots who talked the talk but wouldn't walk the walk". But some people keep trying to insist that Mesaba's rates won't hurt our contract talks and those people need to understand the TRUTH that OUR MANAGEMENT will now use YOUR RATES as a bargaining tool AGAINST US.

IT'S NOT THE ONLY STICK THEY'RE BEATING US WITH, but it's certainly one that I believe didn't have to be added to the fire. If the majority of those disagreeing with me here acknowledge that simple fact and take responsibility for it I'll shut up.

 

[CptOver]

Lear....
Get real, the contract may have had Captain pay RATE lower on the CRJ, but only for a few months in DOS year. There is no way however, that the XJ Captain in that rate would have made less that a Captain under PNCL's contract with the same seniority and the higher (if only pennies) rate due to work rules and guarantees. Not to mention that we didn't have any 44-50 seat jets on the property when the contract was negotiated and it would take some time (at least through DOS+1 to get them), so why would it be a priority in the contract for DOS? That window of PNCL rates over XJ rates closed a long time ago, and very quickly.

PNCL's pilots have a long and hard road to trudge up over the next year or two. I hope that in the end, the PNCL contract sets the bar over XJ (only compairing redtail flying here). But this is only the first step by NWA and PNCL management to bash the pilot group, there will be many more. Stay the line, stay united, and you will come out ahead, notice I didn't say win (negotiations are like wars, nobody really wins, just outsurvives).

Whipsawing only works if we are divided, otherwise it is a relay race.

 

[fly4ever]

Lear70,

I usually agree with what you post but there are a few exceptions:

You conveniently forget that 9E pilots agreed to CRJ rates just a few years ago which were based on the rates XJ negotiated in 1996 in order to grab the carrot. Your rates DID NOT improve on our rates from our 96 contract so who is responsible for the undercut then? Didn't you realize that OUR management would use YOUR (our old rates) against us in negotiations even though we had no CRJs. Our 2004 rates were not as good as we would have liked but they did slightly improve on yours(ours previously).

Industry leading Saab rates is and has not been a bad deal for us since two thirds of our fleet are Saabs. Not to mention the fact that these airplanes are now extended until 2015 along with the Avros I might add. Weren't you one of the posters that claimed we wouldn't operate three fleets because of costs? That one of these fleets would be phased out? Still a possibility but NWA wouldn't have agreed to this if these airplanes didn't make them money.

You also have stated previously that you are happy with 12-13 days off and blocking 95 hours so you can time out and have a month off at the end of the year. If you remain at 9E until a new contract is agreed upon don't be surprised if your schedulers become quite good at producing schedules with 12-13 days off and only 75-84 hours and nobody timing out. Why? Because flying will get shifted away from you as pressure is applied and you have no work rules to help you. Will you support less than industry leading CRJ rates to get good work rules or are you just happy to stay in your personal space and not care about newhires and other lower seniority pilots that are at the mercy of a bad contract but, oh boy, those rates are awesome?!

We will support you all the way through your negotiations but when it comes right down to it your group will be hit with your own unique set of circumstances and the dealing will be done between you and your management. Remember to aim for plus 20% this time will you please? Now that we possibly have some CRJs coming to us we want to be able to build on the 96 rates that you guys borrowed in 2000.

Regards,
Fly

 

[Dodge]

flyfever,
you forget that Lear70 was nowhere around 9E then, so that doesn't count.


Lear70,
you forget that if you doubled the seniority of most all your pilots, they wouldn't be able to hold Saab captain in dirty MEM at XJ. You need to look a few lines down on the wage table to see what XJ pilots "really" make. The "evil" XJ 50 seat rate song is getting old, even though I DO agreee with you; they are not good.

 

[RampTower]

**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**... all this Mesaba vs. Pinnacle bashing going on- reminds me of the time period circa 1997-98. Then Pinnacle was Express I, and most of today's pinnacle pilots were just getting their driver's license.

I still think the tension between the two pilots was worse then, compared to now. There used to be serious shouting matches on designated frequencies. All the good ol days. Lets all meet in the back alley of the NWA hangars and go at it. No gloves, all out. you guys crack me up.....

 

[1.3XVso]

Thank you... wasssssssssssssssssssssaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..And Congrats.

 

[Lear70]

Hey Dodge, good point about lear70. He still dwells on the fact that our 50 seats rates were slightly lower during the first part of the contract. So what.

They're only pennies more than ours at DOS + 1 also and you'll be flying them under those rates. Sad, but so was pay here.

Hey Lear70,

Where was 9E's 20% over XJ's contract in 2000? I suppose you wouldn't know, you were probably doing S-turns and soft field landings when that was signed. You're all talk buddy. I hope 9E walks away with a killer contract, but if they don't; I'll be looking for your excuses. It will be everyone else's fault, right.

I was a 727 Captain making $90,000 a year with 16 days off per month. Where were you flamebaiter? 6 posts total on Flightinfo? I think Training and Shhharuuuullle is back.

Maybe you should spend less time on this message board flappping your jaw and get involved with the union and help negotiate the contract-put your energy to good use.

I did that - I was too millitant and aggressive for them.

Good luck.

Thanks. We're going to need it!

 

[Lear70]

Sure you were Lear70, 727 making $90,000/year. Decided to head towards greener pastures at PCL.

No, I just like to lie about that sort of thing and found a way to fake all the type ratings on the back of my license... idiot. Have you ever heard of the term "permanent furlough"?

And since when is it cool to have 600 posts on this forum? I don't think that is something to brag about, dude. You have 655. Loser!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yup, and you get to about 20 posts each time before you get banned TRAINING. Go flamebait somewhere else.

 

[Tank Commander]

9E pilot group, 9E management, XJ pilot group, XJ management, all puppets on a string being played by the puppet master, NWA and its pilot group. 9E time to go out and find new work………