Pinnacle, Mesaba, Colgan SLI

[CptMurf]

Keep in mind all PCL pilots are giving up their ability to decline involuntary assignements. This JCBA pays a lot for them but most PCL pilots are more about days off - which we are giving up some of those too. And a good number of pilots are going to see their take home pay after medical premiums/deductibles decrease. Lets see, less money, fewer days off and they can't tell them 'no thanks, I'm going home' anymore.

The JNC is claiming junior assignments will be very expensive. They will be. The problem is the pay over guarentee provisions for reserves, among other provisions, makes it even more expensive to overstaff or correctly staff the airline. Say good bye to your days off. The only good thing that I see in this Agreement is it makes junior manning truly junior, instead of the senior manning PCL has currently.

The price some PCL pilots are being asked to pay for the job security of this merger is leaving a very bitter taste in their mouths. So much for the 'No pilot left behind' battle cry.

Look there's give and takes for all of us, I would like to think by design. I realize the loss of some provisions for 9E pilots. There are also big gains. As a senior XJ, have little to gain in this TA, but I don't lose much either. Junior XJ have mediocre gains, with mediocre losses. 9L has big gains, but suffers too, with the carve outs. Maybe that's what the negotiators were trying to accomplish, fair and equitable gains (and losses) across the board.

 

[beechjetdriver]

No blasting intended. I used your quote only to start the reply. Sorry if it was taken that way.

Gotcha. Sorry for interpreting incorrectly.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Just to clarify, I think this merger could be a good thing, and I'm voting yes to the TA. I thought I had made this fairly clear in my previous posts. I was purely responding and disagreeing to WMUSIGPI's negativity on the whole situation, and commenting/correcting a few things that you had said earlier. From your last post it appears you are blasting me, but essentially saying the same thing that I was saying the whole time. Maybe I'm misreading your post. If so, I apologize. Either way, I agree with your last post. Sorry for the confusion...

I am not pleased with our sale and the subsuquent need to merge. I am not pleased with working under Delta. NWA was no walk in the park but now things are an even bigger mess. I get that it was out of our control. What I don't like is all this talk going into the JCBA about taking the best of each contract yet I look at many sections that were basically a cut and paste, not taking the best of all. And all this talk of industry leading, the ONLY thing I see as industry leading is leg guarantee. Unfortunately that does me no good as a reserve since they didn't include pinnacle's better build up reserves pay.
On the other hand I don't see us getting anything better by voting this thing down at this point.
Everything now comes down to the SLI and timing of it compared to the timing of the impending displacements. All this talk of nobody will be displaced is nonsense. Maybe nobody will directly with the SLI but the next day as another wave of Saabs are parked and more planes are shifted to NYC there will be many displacements. The key is to come out far enough ahead to not get caught in the backwash created from all this. Either every type will be fenced or just about everyone in the company will somehow be hurting in this cascade.

 

[dcfu69]

Instead they leave us as 2 stand alone carriers. It was XJs fragmentation policy that forced the JCBA and SLI, without it, this "asset transfer" would be the ugliest thing ever seen in aviation, with 1/3 of the workforce walking immediately, a defined "struck work" the other 2/3 should not be doing, and idle aircraft stuck between 3 airlines and 2 carriers. It would have also bankrupt PNCL holdings. In fact it still could happen if the JCBA is voted down. Which is why Ridgebacks ALPA rep stated what he did in the RGS.

The path we are on, is the best outcome for ALL three of our carriers. The TA, although not perfect by any means is our best chance at survival in this merger/aqusition/asset transfer. If it is voted down, there is NO obligation to merge the contracts or lists. 9L will take on XJs contract and would be merged by an SLI negotiated between the two. The jets would be transferred to 9E with no obligation to any transferring pilots other than "offer employment." Since no XJ guys in their right mind would go, esp. under the current 9E contract, (and they cannot be forced to go) 9E would crumble under training costs, increase accidents (associated to ALL rapid expansions), and increased unemployment costs (at XJ). 9E would continue to work under contract '99, until forced to take concessions under BK.

We are all in this together, none better than the other. Our symbiotic relationship depends on working through the JCBA and SLI methodically, and as fairly as possible. We have a descent TA, not great, not industry leading, but definately a good starting point to combine this company into a great regional airline (if there is such a thing). The negotiation timeline was fast, but needed to be. After talking to my negotiator friends, we achieved EVERYTHING we were going to get out of mgmt. In the end they were arguing over reseting longevity dates for pay for the 9E guys to Day 1 of training. (An item that was only listed for 1 million or so) Yet there was absolutely no way mgmt. would even move that small amount (relative) to finish the TA. (ie. You know you got the best deal on a car if you are haggling over the last $100 dollars)

I, for one, do not want to be the biggest, or best paid in the industry. Because when you are, there is only ONE way to go (ala Comair '00). I want to be in the upper third. Stable....Competative....Happy.

If you think voting no will lead to a better contract, then vote no. But understand the risks. Vote your conscience, vote you heart, but vote informed also. The airplanes will transfer no matter what in May. There is a risk to us all in that.

By far one of the best posts about this contract I have seen. Thanks Murf

 

[Kaman]

I really sympathize with the XJ guys and gals feeling that they are being treated unfairly and having to basically "tread water" in what they characterize as a concessionary contract. We are living in a VERY competitive world now, and the cost of fuel IS going to continue to rise. This contract will allow both sides of the contract the best possible chance to survive, and hopefully prosper. It isn't a perfect contract, and I don't think we will really see much improvement if it doesn't pass. I am going to vote, Yes. Not emphatically, but with an eye toward what would the alternative(s) be?
We cannot predict the future, but we can place ourselves in the best strategic position to succeed in the future. I believe that this contract will allow us to do that, and if there is a silver lining for those that really want to move onto DL,AA,US,UA, etc...That opportunity is going to be there for you, especially in 2012 and beyond. If I were to speculate I would say that at least HALF of the pilots on the combined seniority will have moved onto greener pastures. And, the remaining half is going to be about the right-sized pilot group after the SAAB retirement and the CRJ-200s begin their flights to the desert and are replaced with more 900s and/or Q-400s/Q-400Xs.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

 

[gojo]

I really sympathize with the XJ guys and gals feeling that they are being treated unfairly and having to basically "tread water" in what they characterize as a concessionary contract. We are living in a VERY competitive world now, and the cost of fuel IS going to continue to rise. This contract will allow both sides of the contract the best possible chance to survive, and hopefully prosper. It isn't a perfect contract, and I don't think we will really see much improvement if it doesn't pass. I am going to vote, Yes. Not emphatically, but with an eye toward what would the alternative(s) be?
We cannot predict the future, but we can place ourselves in the best strategic position to succeed in the future. I believe that this contract will allow us to do that, and if there is a silver lining for those that really want to move onto DL,AA,US,UA, etc...That opportunity is going to be there for you, especially in 2012 and beyond. If I were to speculate I would say that at least HALF of the pilots on the combined seniority will have moved onto greener pastures. And, the remaining half is going to be about the right-sized pilot group after the SAAB retirement and the CRJ-200s begin their flights to the desert and are replaced with more 900s and/or Q-400s/Q-400Xs.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

Very good post. I'm at Mesaba, and it hasn't been a lot of fun. We've had maybe two good years in the last eight, as it's been one surprise after another. I truly was encouraged when we became one of Delta's whollly owned, only to be reminded that the grass isn't always greener on the other side. I never thought I'd say, I miss Northwest. I know the guys and gals at Pinnacle have fought their own battles as well. I just hope we can put all this behind and move forward, and hopefully a brighter future

 

[Monster Buck]

Instead they leave us as 2 stand alone carriers. It was XJs fragmentation policy that forced the JCBA and SLI, without it, this "asset transfer" would be the ugliest thing ever seen in aviation, with 1/3 of the workforce walking immediately, a defined "struck work" the other 2/3 should not be doing, and idle aircraft stuck between 3 airlines and 2 carriers. It would have also bankrupt PNCL holdings. In fact it still could happen if the JCBA is voted down. Which is why Ridgebacks ALPA rep stated what he did in the RGS.

The path we are on, is the best outcome for ALL three of our carriers. The TA, although not perfect by any means is our best chance at survival in this merger/aqusition/asset transfer. If it is voted down, there is NO obligation to merge the contracts or lists. 9L will take on XJs contract and would be merged by an SLI negotiated between the two. The jets would be transferred to 9E with no obligation to any transferring pilots other than "offer employment." Since no XJ guys in their right mind would go, esp. under the current 9E contract, (and they cannot be forced to go) 9E would crumble under training costs, increase accidents (associated to ALL rapid expansions), and increased unemployment costs (at XJ). 9E would continue to work under contract '99, until forced to take concessions under BK.

We are all in this together, none better than the other. Our symbiotic relationship depends on working through the JCBA and SLI methodically, and as fairly as possible. We have a descent TA, not great, not industry leading, but definately a good starting point to combine this company into a great regional airline (if there is such a thing). The negotiation timeline was fast, but needed to be. After talking to my negotiator friends, we achieved EVERYTHING we were going to get out of mgmt. In the end they were arguing over reseting longevity dates for pay for the 9E guys to Day 1 of training. (An item that was only listed for 1 million or so) Yet there was absolutely no way mgmt. would even move that small amount (relative) to finish the TA. (ie. You know you got the best deal on a car if you are haggling over the last $100 dollars)

I, for one, do not want to be the biggest, or best paid in the industry. Because when you are, there is only ONE way to go (ala Comair '00). I want to be in the upper third. Stable....Competative....Happy.

If you think voting no will lead to a better contract, then vote no. But understand the risks. Vote your conscience, vote you heart, but vote informed also. The airplanes will transfer no matter what in May. There is a risk to us all in that.

Damn good thing everyone doesn't think this way. Shooting for third? Constantly lowering the bar that someone else raised for you.

 

[CptMurf]

Damn good thing everyone doesn't think this way. Shooting for third? Constantly lowering the bar that someone else raised for you.

This TA in NO WAY lowers a bar. And the comment is geared towards having the highest compensation in every section of the contract. IE. becoming the highest paid (in all forms). There is a point that you competatively price yourself out of the market. At that point, new flying ceases, and furloughs happen. So yes, I stand by my quote.

We all listen to ALPA pound their fists and say "______ or higher, or we walk." But we all know that we would accept just being towards the top. If you disagree with that, then you would have never gone to Delta.

 

[gojo]

This TA in NO WAY lowers a bar. And the comment is geared towards having the highest compensation in every section of the contract. IE. becoming the highest paid (in all forms). There is a point that you competatively price yourself out of the market. At that point, new flying ceases, and furloughs happen. So yes, I stand by my quote.

We all listen to ALPA pound their fists and say "______ or higher, or we walk." But we all know that we would accept just being towards the top. If you disagree with that, then you would have never gone to Delta.

I get the impression that many at Delta forget where they came from

 

[Monster Buck]

This TA in NO WAY lowers a bar. And the comment is geared towards having the highest compensation in every section of the contract. IE. becoming the highest paid (in all forms). There is a point that you competatively price yourself out of the market. At that point, new flying ceases, and furloughs happen. So yes, I stand by my quote.

We all listen to ALPA pound their fists and say "______ or higher, or we walk." But we all know that we would accept just being towards the top. If you disagree with that, then you would have never gone to Delta.

It is not fair for me to pick out one single sentence in your post and make a point of it. That being said, looking at what i highlighted and how I commented on it..... spot on. You know it wasn't about the ta, its actually just fine all things considered.

The ta is what it is simply because management wanted to get it done. Period. If you think differently go ask a pinnacle pilot what the last six years was like when management didn't want to get it done. If they didn't want to get it done to move ahead more smoothly with the merger, they would still be telling you to go pound sand as they have for the last six years. Nothing more nothing less.

 

[Monster Buck]

I get the impression that many at Delta forget where they came from

I first commented on your post but I changed it. The first one was strongly in opposition to what you said. But after thinking about it......deep sigh....you are right. Some. Not most though forget from time to time. Although some may wrongly disagree for their own reasons, I will never and have never forgotten were I came from....which includes all the way back to the son of immigrant truck driver and a maid. You are right brother.....some forget, I will not. Paid my dues and will fight to raise the bar for all those behind me. The day I got hired at Delta I was given a large written copy of the contract I was to benefit from. I did not fight for those rights. Decades of pilots before me did. It is now my turn to fight for the ones that follow and not gut it for my own benefit. Good luck to you.

 

[CptMurf]

Damn good thing everyone doesn't think this way. Shooting for third? Constantly lowering the bar that someone else raised for you.

After reading your post about 20 times to figured out how it was "spot on", I think I got it. "Shooting for third" is due to the fact that I dealt with (1) negotiations and contract '04, (2) BK concessionary contract, and (3) TA negotiations. And I am shooting for the third contract, with the exact same rates as the first, to finally be honored. And that extending an initial 5 year contract into 12 is constantly lowering a bar that someone else has raised for me. But due to their own problems, they lowered their contracts to less than what the TA offers.

If that is what you meant, then I agree. If not, than I stand by my initial quote.

In your last point, I agree, the timeline is due to mgmt wanting it done. But they wanted it done before moving aircraft, which would have triggered contract provisions which would have drug the entire Corp into labor problems. No one doubts mgmt wanted it done quickly, but the pilots needed it done just as quickly. Time was not on our side like during section 6 or BK negotiations.

 

[Ridgeback]

after the SAAB retirement and the CRJ-200s begin their flights to the desert and are replaced with more 900s and/or Q-400s/Q-400Xs.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

I love these guys...PLEASE EXPLAIN to how we are getting any more 900's. They are SCOPED out period....NO mainline pilot is going to give up scope an inch further...

 

[MACH-TUCK]

I love these guys...PLEASE EXPLAIN to how we are getting any more 900's. They are SCOPED out period....NO mainline pilot is going to give up scope an inch further...

I had a Delta wide body captain in my jumpseat today tell me he would gladly give up scope for a raise.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

I had a Delta wide body captain in my jumpseat today tell me he would gladly give up scope for a raise.

I would as well. Scope is neither here nor there, but money is where it's at.

You can have the "9." Mgmt can make more money off of those than the 50's and they'll pass the money along to us.