Pinnacle in the next year ?

[SennaP1]

For all you 9E guys (or others in-the-know)


Whats the outlook at Pinnacle? Yeah I've heard bad and sorta good. The contract is (going to be) up, and Big Brother (NWA) is going to start his game. What do you guys see happening, is this still a good place to start. The whole 'Whipsaw" idea makes me cringe as I don't want to be part of a XJ v. 9E debacle, and we all know that is the game NWA is gonna play.

Heard from a 9E Capt. "You can only shine up a terd so much, its still a terd."

Is this really the mood around there? Is it a good place to think about?

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Deja vu...

 

[SennaP1]

Been there only once....I didn't know they had ALL 3 ugly girls at the same place

 

[Wanderer]

Two thumbs up for that response!

 

[Lear70]

Depends on who you fly with and which crappy Alert Bullletin or memo has come out to worsen our Quality Of Life. Also depends on what your background is.

Most of the people here with less than 1500 Total Time are happier than a pig in sh*t. Most of the people who have worked at other airlines before here recognize this as one of the most adversarial management groups in the industry. The rest of the people who have only worked at this company except for some minor flight instruction or 135 work are just here to do their time and go home.

Either way, most people try to make the best of their situation and just have a good time, then get the hell out. The contract is up this time next year but we're not expecting anything too drastic in the way of whipsaw tactics for at least 6 months to a year after openers which is a year and a half to two years from now. We're also expecting to get most, if not all of the next batch of CRJ's NWA just put financing on, but that may be the last ones we get for a long time to come.

It can be a good place to get in early and build time, but unless you're a Gulfstreamer, a furloughed NWA pilot, or have a recommendation or three, the odds of getting an interview right now are slim and none. WAY too many people to choose from off the "recommendations" pile - they're finally starting to interview guys I recommended a year ago... of course, that may mean they're at the bottom of the "recommendations" pile, too.

Either way, good luck!

 

[another cfii]

We're just like any other regionals, with sub-par pay, especially FO (2nd and 3rd year pay...), and schedule sucks. But hey, our job is too easy for mgmt to acknowledge us, so... don't ask for a medal or a pad on the back.

Our pilot group is very fine, as best as any other top carriers, i have to say. Most of our interviewees come from either recommendation directly to J. Grantham or Gulfstream. I don't think they do much off the street hiring now except those two categories. If you want some quick jet time, come on by, but if you think that you can upgrade in 12-18 mo., please don't even waste your time. They must now use a new cool-aid formula down in Memphis when they do training

 

[fly4ever]

9E will be done getting new aircraft if or when they reach 129. Sorry guys but your turn on the "whipsaw" merry-go-round will begin sooner than you think. It is the NWA way of doing business and it will be at least as nasty for you as it has been for NW or XJ, maybe worse. Your own CEO just said that all scope language whould be done away with. I believe the gauntlet has been thrown down.

Enjoy your growth now and good luck in the fight.

 

[XJXJXJ]

<<<<<<<<<<<<< We're also expecting to get most, if not all of the next batch of CRJ's NWA just put financing on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


DREAM ON. No way in Hades will NWA continue to grow you guys, especially with the contract coming up. 9E growth is about to come to a grinding halt for at least the next 3-5 years.

 

[DoinTime]

If NW chooses to covert the options they have arranged financing for I predict Mesaba will get 50 and PCL will get 25. This will leave both carriers with a similar fleet size.

 

[fly4ever]

DoinTime,

Your statement about same size fleets doesn't take into account that when we start getting new planes at least one of our other types will go away. XJ will not be a three fleet operator for long, it's too expensive. As one goes away we will gain more of the new type. That should mean more than 50 of whatever NWA wants to send our way.

We know better than to assume anything until we start seeing them on our property with our name. Having been through the negotiation process we also know how they play the game and unfortunately your turn is next and it isn't pretty. You are scheduled to receive your remaining aircraft by the end of the year and with your negotiations starting in December you can expect things to start slowing down in the second half of this year.

It's too bad there is talk about 9E hiring captains off the street again because if that happens your junior people will be sitting on the bottom for a long time when the music stops later this year.

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst (and it will get much worse).

 

[norskman2]

\
at least one of our other types will go away. XJ will not be a three fleet operator for long, it's too expensive. As one goes away we will gain more of the new type.

What are you saying? That the Saabs or the Avros will go away? Now that NWA backed down from their stupid threat to pull the Avros, don't the Avro leases have 3 more years to go?

 

[dondk]

we are a regional, just like all of the others. We have our good and our bad (like the others). The only thing we have right now is growth and that will be for maybe another year.

It all depends on what you are looking to take from this job. If you looking for fast upgrade, look elsewhere. If you looking for top pay, look elsewhere. If your looking for an industry leading contract.. again.. look elsewhere. If your looking for a place to call home until you find somewhere better... we are not all that bad, there are worse places to be.

Of the additional "jets" in the NW fleet, I agree with my fellow pilots.. We will see "some" of them. It makes sense, they will come with 9E's name on them, but because they are not in the 129 that has been recognized, they will be used as a whipsaw with our brothers at XJ. I would plan on musical aircraft for a while just like the ARJ...

XJ as a 3 aircraft fleet.. yea, they will stay that way for a while.. NWA is not going to give up on those Saab's.. they go places no other equipment CAN go. With XJ's scope clause, the Saab is staying for a few more years to come.
The ARJ is also going to be around for a few more years to come to offset those 9-10's that are going to pasture in the next 2 years.

If I had to guess.. NWA would rather give XJ 70 seaters (if they could) to just piss off mainline NW and 9E... That is the name of the game and NW is very good at it...

 

[fly4ever]

norskman2,

That is exactly what I'm saying. If/when we receive another type, one of our older fleets will be phased out. Our fleet operating agreements are with NW (they hold the leases on nearly all of our aircraft) and through mutual negotiations they can and will be altered, modified or scrapped and re-written to fit whatever marketing and money-making plan NW has in mind if they see a benefit to do so.

dondk,

NW is done whipsawing us for now - the pressure will be applied to you as your negotiations draw closer and get dragged out for the next 2 1/2 to 3 years (unless you jump at the first offer from the company which I seriously doubt you will). Since you will be the target of the "whipsaw" don't count on any more planes past the 129. 9E's operating agreement with NW can also be drastically altered through mutual negotiations regardless of what the pilot group thinks. Even the 129 number can be altered and it is naive to think that NW doesn't have the ability to do so and they don't make business decisions based on who they should piss off next. They could care less about 9E pilots and their feelings.

 

[another cfii]

I doubt they're get rid of the ARJ or Saab anytime soon. NW is too beancounting to get rid of something they own. I think they'd rather fly them 'till the wheels come off then send them to AZ.

Granted our 9E 129 fleet size can change at a minute's notice, but NW has been pressuring us to fly more and more for the last few months, and looks like they'll need us more before they can stop any new a/c delivery, so let's hope the industry will get better by the time our contract talks begin.

 

[norskman2]

I doubt they're get rid of the ARJ or Saab anytime soon. NW is too beancounting to get rid of something they own.

The Avros are on I believe a 10-year lease that's up in 2006. Not sure about the Saabs.

 

[smokey999]

Is it at all remotely possible that 9E management may see the benifit of quick contract talks and make an excellent offer right away? I may be naive here, but XJ's management dropped the ball, all that time fighting for a few cents here, few cents there, while NW is sawing away giving 9E all the growth. If the contract goes well(again, possible ignorance on my part) I would think 9E doesn't miss a beat and gets all of the future orders, and as for XJ, who knows, maybe seaching for more code partners?

 

[norskman2]

Is it at all remotely possible that 9E management may see the benifit of quick contract talks and make an excellent offer right away?

That's a good one. I know nothing about 9E or XJ's management, but has ANY airline ever made an "excellent" offer right off the bat?

 

[Lear70]

First, the contract is not amendable for well over another year (May '05). The openers will be six months prior to that (November) according to our negotiating committee who are hard at work preparing for that, but we won't see anything in negotiations until probably a year and change from now. Since we get our 129th aircraft sometime in either Dec '04 or Jan '05, that would leave us with several months of "status quo" operations as far as fleet growth goes.

All of the following is speculation, which is all that any of us can do, but what makes more sense from NWA's management (disclaimer - they never have made sense before, but why let that stop us from applying intelligence where none seems to exist?):

Situation 1: NW gives all the next batch of RJ's to Mesaba. We realize that we're done getting new airplanes and will not be growing. There is zero fleet growth and everyone is stuck where they are; do you think that would make pilots eager to sign for whatever they offer in exchange for growth or do you think it would drive home the issue of how badly we need protection in the form of pay and Quality Of Life issues?

Situation 2: NW gives us part of the next batch of RJ's that keeps us growing right up to the beginning of negotiations, then they walk into the room and say, "Here's the deal: take your current contract, add 2% to the 401k, add 3% per year cost of living increases to the salaries across the board, keep the rest of it the way it is and we guarantee you will keep getting RJ's". Now you've got the top 25% of the seniority group getting to keep their 14 days off and the rest of the QOL stays the same with no risk of strike, the bottom 25% of the seniority group gets guaranteed to upgrade in 2 - 3 years which they will need to build the upgrade minimum times anyway, and at least some of the middle 50% don't want to risk prolonged negotiations because they just know Southwest is calling in the next year anyway. That puts the vote near the 60% mark...

That last scenario is my biggest fear and why I think NW won't be foolish enough to start the Whipsaw TOO early... Leave that dangling carrot out there until it's fight time, then start snatching it just out of reach. My .02 cents for what it's worth...

As far as our mangement offering a decent contract right off the bat? Don't count on it. And please, don't take that as me being rude, this management group has proven time and time again that they don't really care for pilots and consider us a dime a dozen. Our senior management has directly said that they consider our job "easy" and that we are "some of the best paid pilots in the industry". In our last quarter's financial statement, our CEO said that "We will pay our employees industry average wages, but demand our employees work harder than the industry average." Does that sound like a management group that is ready to recognize the work that we put into the airline?

Now many of you may understand why we refer to our airline as "Pitiful Airlines" or "Cynical Airlines"... That's also why I said that as long as you can come to work, do your job, have a great time with your coworkers who are indeed some great people, and just go home without getting caught up in the company Pravda, this is a pretty decent place to work.

 

[dondk]

I agree with Lear70 on senario #2...

We are "guaranteed" 129 jet's, NWA.. despite beliefs by other's that will not be any less.

The only way they can "reduce" our fleet is "if" we go on strike. To reduce for something other than a strike would have to show good cause to the SEC and to the investors. The IPO was written stating 129 aircraft, growth and all the other stuff to get someone to buy our stock. To give us less could be construed so many ways I doubt NW would want to get into that battle.

When the last jet arrives we will have about 80% of our pilot group able to vote. Of that 80% most will have 2+ years being abused by our weak contract. I seriously doubt our management and their Memphis Kool Aid can or will be able to convince the pilot group to anything less than an outstanding contract with many changes that will drive up the cost and lower thier bonus's.

The only way I see some of our pilot group agreeing to less is the promise of growth and additional jet's. No more growth, no more jet's.. no reason to take a "lesser" contract.

Even if the take away some of our 129.. let's be real.. it would affect those 20% who could not vote anyway and piss off the junior pilots who know they are not going anywhere for a few years. More incentive to dig in and fight for a decent contract.

 

[JJJ]

But hey, our job is too easy for mgmt to acknowledge us, so... don't ask for a medal or a pad on the back

Does that sound like a management group that is ready to recognize the work that we put into the airline

Didn't you guys get your bling bling gold plated key chain?



NWA has options for 175 additional CRJ's. I think we will get at least 1 more. I wouldn't be suprised either if some of them went to another carrier.

If you look at the original delivery schedule, which had the last delivery at the end of '05 and compare it to the current schedule, with the last delivery at the end of this year or beginning of next year, you can see that NWA wants as many RJ's and as soon as possible.

Assuming tha NWA wants the deliveries to continue the stream of RJ's next year, they need to announce a decision soon. The longer they wait to make a decision, the odds increase that they will either be flown by Pinnacle or another carrier that currently operates CRJ's. Mesaba does not have a CRJ program, and would take time to establish. This is not to say that Mesaba will not get RJ's in the future, because I think that they will.

The current rumor is that 30 additional CRJ's are on the way to Pinnacle for a total of 159. But take it with a grain of salt..... it wasn't from a "senior captain"

As far as negotiations, with few exceptions (ie Comair) regional pilots don't go on strike and vote yes on the first TA the comes their way. Prediction for Pinnacle.... Yes on TA #1, or I'll eat my hat, if I had one.