Pinnacle Hiring Restrictions

[CL600Pilot]

If Lear70 say so, I guess thier is. I was a 500hr. wonder child. satlol, I up grade this year.

And I'll be happy to see you in the left seat Tank! I personally would have beat feet for Mutual but that's just me. The difference between you and many of the other low time new hires (everybody notice I said many not all!) is that you have a ton of experience making major decisions with major consequences - albeit not aviation related. I will stipulate that the Gulfstreamers and other low time new hires probably get an unfair amount of "crap" here at Pinnacle but the cold hard truth is that they themselves do a fair amount to perpetuate this situation. Many of them don't understand that there is ALOT more to being a Captain than being able to fly the airplane without crashing it. The most commong thing I hear from low time(when they were hired) guys is "I have 2500 hours in this jet - that's my left seat". I flew with a guy the other day that actually said to me that he deserved to upgrade because he had 2000 hours of CRJ time - after talking with him a bit it turns out that he has done absolutley nothing to help develop the other "Captain skills" he'll need - he's quite content sitting in the right seat like a bump on a log just writing hours into his logbook until he gets the magical number - it's people like that give you guys a bad name.

Anyway, that's my long winded way of saying that I think you "get it" and will be a great Captain - I hope I get to fly with you again before I leave.

CL

 

[mayoplane]

I just flew with one of the ERAU CAPT program grads a few days ago. He certainly lacked the experience and needed help with some minor stuff, but overall he was a pretty good FO. I believe we currently have 4 CAPT grads on line with more on the way.

Let me clarify this. CAPT program has very LITTLE to do with the university itself other than the fact that the program is managed by ERAU. They have a totally different type of airplanes, uniform, instructors' pay and benefits. (Riddle instructors are unionized. ) They have a flight line at a different location than the main flight line.

People keep calling it ERAU CAPT program, it makes me sick because it's just a totally seperate program they created to suck in all the money that's out there. None of the university students and the faculties look at it as a part of the university. The program got a lot of pressure because they weren't placing anybody in the regional airline jobs. I really wouldn't be surprised if there were some money transactions going between them and the regional airlines to have this type of bridge program. It's not the safest thing to have a new captain and the guys with that little experience in an airplane. They should either stop taking those, or start paying us 150 percent for being a flight instructor in a jet.

 

[barnyard]

This is the kicker! I have 2000Hrs with ATP and LR-JET type, Applyed with pinnacle last yr and Still not called. However a 500hr pilot flying rt seat.
Thats me God's hacky sac.

...Because you're overqualified. They can sense someone without SJS with one glance at the resume. You might even care what kind of pay And QOL you get!

Wait, why the hel did you apply in the first place?

 

[PCL_128]

It's not the safest thing to have a new captain and the guys with that little experience in an airplane.

Give me a break. I'm a relatively new Captain and I don't have any problem flying with these low time guys. They work hard and they can certainly assist when a problem comes up. Any Captain that has a problem flying with a low-timer is someone that doesn't have any confidence in their own abilities. United and other majors were hiring guys with nothing but a PVT back in the 50s-60s. They did just fine and the Captains didn't whine about it either.

 

[Lear70]

Give me a break. I'm a relatively new Captain and I don't have any problem flying with these low time guys. They work hard and they can certainly assist when a problem comes up. Any Captain that has a problem flying with a low-timer is someone that doesn't have any confidence in their own abilities. United and other majors were hiring guys with nothing but a PVT back in the 50s-60s. They did just fine and the Captains didn't whine about it either.

I agree with Mayoplane and, after 3701, I'm amazed you wouldn't too.

"They can certainly assist when a problem comes up..." ??!! Yeah, he was assisting alright.

Low-time is fine until something goes wrong; when it does, I don't appreciate having to montior and correct what they're doing wrong (since they most likely haven't seen any of the REAL abnormals except in the sim if they're new) PLUS having to deal with the problem.

Ran into this twice over the years here at PCL; it worked out, but it was an unnecessary distraction with an EXPERIENCED Captain. Would hate to see it happen with one of the Street CA's or a guy who upgraded in 3 months who had only flown turboprops before they got here.

That's WHY many of us have been trying to push a "Green-on-green" rule against such pairings.

To believe that someone is such a "super captain" that, immediately after upgrade, they can take on a 250 hour pilot who is fresh off O.E. in a full-blown emergency situation is a little over-confident for my taste.

Yet another reason I watch to see who is flying when I put my family on one of our planes.

 

[FO4life]

It's not easy finding a corp job with all these out of work airline pilots grabing up the jobs. especially when you got low time like me ( low time being under 3K ).

 

[DC8 Flyer]

I agree with Mayoplane and, after 3701, I'm amazed you wouldn't too.

"They can certainly assist when a problem comes up..." ??!! Yeah, he was assisting alright.

Low-time is fine until something goes wrong; when it does, I don't appreciate having to montior and correct what they're doing wrong (since they most likely haven't seen any of the REAL abnormals except in the sim if they're new) PLUS having to deal with the problem.

Ran into this twice over the years here at PCL; it worked out, but it was an unnecessary distraction with an EXPERIENCED Captain. Would hate to see it happen with one of the Street CA's or a guy who upgraded in 3 months who had only flown turboprops before they got here.

That's WHY many of us have been trying to push a "Green-on-green" rule against such pairings.

To believe that someone is such a "super captain" that, immediately after upgrade, they can take on a 250 hour pilot who is fresh off O.E. in a full-blown emergency situation is a little over-confident for my taste.

Yet another reason I watch to see who is flying when I put my family on one of our planes.

/rant on



/rant off

 

[Lear70]

You asked for it...

/rant on


L70, I dont get it. Where are people supposed to get this magical experience from? You said you would be more comfortable with someone with previous 121 experience?

They get it from flying for several hundred hours before flying with a newly upgraded Captain. Captains get it from being RESTRICTED from flying with low-time F/O's until the Captains get some time under their belt. It's called "Green on green" rules", and is simply designed to keep low-time Captains paired with high time F/O's and low time F/O's paired with high-time Captains.

Do you honestly think flying cargo in a BE58 for a year will make anyone more "safe" and experienced when it comes to flying a CRJ?

ABSOLUTELY !!

It's called "REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE"! I'll take a 1,500 hour freight dog F/O from a BE58 over a 250 or 500 hour GFT or ERAU every day of the week and twice on Tuesday.

Everyone has to start somewhere, and this period in the industry of low timers is not new or unique. The only thing different now than before is the mentallity of the "younger" captains. A vocal group of them are so insecure in their own abilities that the meer thought of having to fly with someone slightly less skilled than them sends them running to mommy and daddy to cry about the "shamble" the industry is in.

Possibly. I haven't run into many of them... but maybe I've just been in the left seat too long to remember them.

ou as a captain have a responsibility to safety, effeciency, and profitability to the airline. You also have a responsibility to groom and set an example for ALL of your FOs, not just the ones you buddy around with.

Agreed

Just because someone doesn't make the same career mistakes you did and didn't have to "pay dues" to get a job at PNCL or any other commuter doesn't make them less valuable or less capable.

The only "career mistake" I can think of is having turned down the full-ride scholarship to Vandy Law and flying on the side for fun.

Seriously, their "paying dues" doesn't have jack sh*t to do with "career mistakes"; I'm not going to play to your PFT provocation...

I don't mean to flame or cause heartburn but this "low timer" argument is old and tired.

If you don't like it, don't read it.

The pay rates for FOs at most commuters was pitiful before "low timers" showed up and ya'll that negotiated those horrible rates are now stuck with what you pay for and 99% of them are not bad at all and are simpley trying to make a living doing what they love.

Granted; I wasn't here during the last negotiations, I was out flying freight. Read through my posts, you will see me repeatedly mention top-notch F/O's who post on here about how much I enjoyed flying with them. As I said before, there are a "select few" who make it more work than it should have to be, as I'm sure they think about certain CA's they fly with. JMHO.

But it does get real hard to do that when the vast majority of the 3000 hour captains out there tell you them how stupid and underqualified they are every chance they get.

Again, wouldn't know about that... don't sit in the cockpit with any 3000 hour Captains.

This industry isn't in the tubes because of PFT or low timers or SJS, it's in the tubes because the current gen X of captains (pre 9/11 hires) have no stinking respect for themselves or others in the industry and have absolutely no interest in helping others progress their careers along.

I have no clue where the hell THAT came from... Do you have some pent-up hostility or anger you'd like to share with the group?

Captains, when is the last time you gave constructive crits on how to handle a situation or tips on how to operate the aircraft within SOPs a little better. Or did you just mumble under your breath, rookie and go on to bitch about that person on flightinfo?

I don't b*tch about any particular F/O's... ok, maybe the one who was intimidating F/A's to sleep with him on layovers and got canned. But other than that, my gripe is simply that the lower the experience / age, the lower the salary expectations and, in MOST cases, the lower the safety as well.

There's NO substitute for experience; it's pretty simple math.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

L70

I deleted my post because it came off as me unloading on you, when I was simply unloading on the situation. My apologies.

A lot of people have forgotten what it was like to start out in this job and I see way too many people with a chip on their shoulder and hold huge grudges against anyone who didn't take the same career path as they did.

There is no substitute for experience, period. BUT 1500 hours of BE58 time flying checks doesn't any more prepare you for a Dash8 or a CRJ than does a 200 hours of DC9 sim time. Experience comes from something done differently 1500 times not the same thing done once and then repeated 1499 times.

That isnt a slam on starcheck guys or ameriflight, etc those are great places to go but are only "intro" jobs because of pay, not importance.

The animosity on this site and others like it demonstrates the childish nature of some people in this industry, myself included. The, I got mine, screw you attitude is rampant and the latest whipping dog are the new guys and gals who are supposed to forgoe flying at the likes of PNCL and such and take jobs flying lesser equipement (type and avionics wise, not quality), for less pay (relatively) and no options for commuting so haveing to mostly undesirable places to live for the wage. Sure there are some "intro" light twin cargo ops out there that are good places to start IF you live in that area and can afford to work for the pay.

I find it "convenient" that those who are captains now making 70, 80K a year (while not nearly enough for what we do, but a good liveable wage) ranting about the low experience level coming in and how they should be flying freight for 20K a year before they are worthy to sit in THEIR right seat.

The exp. level is low and so is the pay, but look at it from a relative point of view, fly for a 121 airline, make probably double what you are making as a CFI or even better an actual income as opposed to being a student, and get to fly turbine powered airplanes and build good time. What would you do? Take the "high road" and go live in MSP making 1800 a month flying for Airnet? (NOT BASHING AIRNET). Put yourselves in these kids shoes and instead of bitching about them, help them, most want it and will eagerly take it. The ones that slip through the cracks and are genuine threats to the safety of flight, do your job and report them.

 

[Mtnjam]

Net

Wow if I knew Airnet paid $1800 a month I would have gone there!!! I'm yet to see that on here. I was actually one of those fortunate CFI's and made more than I do now. Hard to believe, but true......... Gotta luv the way we get paid