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It's a bit disconcerting that some of you guys haven't yet clicked to the fact that 8Hr is obviously a Pinnacle pilot who's just yanking your chains. He's probably the same guy who was "TopgunMav" ... "JimboRealGoodPilot" ... etc. It's merely entertainment, guys.

He's funny as #$%@, too! :D

Minh
 
Snakum said:
It's a bit disconcerting that some of you guys haven't yet clicked to the fact that 8Hr is obviously a Pinnacle pilot who's just yanking your chains. He's probably the same guy who was "TopgunMav" ... "JimboRealGoodPilot" ... etc. It's merely entertainment, guys.

He's funny as #$%@, too! :D

Minh

Nah Minh,

Don't lump this guy in with Jimbo...Jimbo was at least funny...

Nu
 
Gator1999 said:
I just had to add another one that I heard from Pinnacle in MEM...

-cleared to position and hold as a FedEx MD11 lands flagship replies,"We're going to need 2 minutes behind that heavy" Memphis tower comes back with "uhhhh, whatever..."

Brilliant!

That is good, must be hilarious to be a controller at MEM.
Can't believe the idiots that are flying there.
 
Gator1999 said:
I just had to add another one that I heard from Pinnacle in MEM...

-cleared to position and hold as a FedEx MD11 lands flagship replies,"We're going to need 2 minutes behind that heavy" Memphis tower comes back with "uhhhh, whatever..."

Brilliant!

About 2 months ago was doing the visual to 30R in MSP when a 9E CRJ took someone elses clearance, and taxied out on the runway when we were on a 1/2 mile final. Obviously, we had to go around.

Two mistakes happened here:

1. took the wrong clearance (easily done)
2. failed to clear final for 30R before taking the runway

Number two should never have happened, because it's in every 121 operations manual and taught in primary instruction. Number two is put in place, because number one happens from time to time.

I'm just glad it was VMC and we were listening, so we caught it, because the tower didn't have a clue. This would have sucked if it were down to minimums.

Thanks for the overtime!
 
Good Lord, this thread is still going on??

Talked to my buddy that runs the sim for PCL, (about getting another buddy of mine possibly in as a street captain), and he tells me the GIA guys SUCK. Straight from his mouth, he's failed at least half of them due to complete incompetence, (says they can't work the autopilot, and are WAAAAAY behind the airplane), and the ones that pass most of the time barely make it through. There is the occasional good one, but the vast majority either fail altogether or barely squeak by.

After talking to him, I start to believe all the stories I hear about PCL. Kinda scary.
 
CapnVegetto, those ridiculous stories have been going around for several years now. The truth is, GIA pilots have a roughly 90% pass rate. Do a few guys have trouble? Of course, but the vast majority do just fine. These stories of mass GIA failures are just a bunch of BS. Do you really think that PCL would have been hiring GIA pilots for over 3 years now if there was a huge failure rate? Do you have any idea how much money a washout costs the company?

P.S. About the MKE accident: Captain was NOT GIA. The FO was, but he can hardly be blamed for what happened in this case.
 
I had an Mesaba Avro taxi across 27R in DTW three and half years while I was in the flare on 27R.

I'm sure it was grounds fault....but like you said its in every manual to clear the runway. Thank you for the overtime and ......good luck.
 
his name finally turned red. anyone know what was the straw that broke the camel's back?
 
AvroJockey said:
Yeah, but you had to fly for free for 15 minutes.

We got every penny of our overtime.

You forgot to brag about your "industry leading Saab rates." :rolleyes:
 
Actually we were being paid block....at 150% for an extension. Thanks anyways.

Oh yea .......good luck.
 
PCL_128 said:
CapnVegetto, those ridiculous stories have been going around for several years now. The truth is, GIA pilots have a roughly 90% pass rate. Do a few guys have trouble? Of course, but the vast majority do just fine. These stories of mass GIA failures are just a bunch of BS. Do you really think that PCL would have been hiring GIA pilots for over 3 years now if there was a huge failure rate? Do you have any idea how much money a washout costs the company?

P.S. About the MKE accident: Captain was NOT GIA. The FO was, but he can hardly be blamed for what happened in this case.

Dude, you're right. I'm simply repeating what I've heard. I don't know first hand. But I do know first hand the difference between a 500 hour copilot and a 1500 hour copilot, and it's HUGE. Half of HIS guys are failing, and most are squeaking by. I believe him, because at 500 hours, you don't have the experience to know how to stay ahead of a jet. I trust my friend....I've known him for about 8 years now, and I believe him a lot more than I believe a pro buy-a-jobber.

If the GIA guys are so great, why did PCL send the last bunch of 'em packing and are refusing to hire any more?

You think maybe the MKE incident wouldn't have happened if the captain had an experienced, non buy-a-job FO that couldn've helped him out a little more, or maybe recognized a bad situation any more?
 
CapnVegetto said:
Dude, you're right. I'm simply repeating what I've heard. I don't know first hand. But I do know first hand the difference between a 500 hour copilot and a 1500 hour copilot, and it's HUGE. Half of HIS guys are failing, and most are squeaking by. I believe him, because at 500 hours, you don't have the experience to know how to stay ahead of a jet. I trust my friend....I've known him for about 8 years now, and I believe him a lot more than I believe a pro buy-a-jobber.

I don't think there's much of a difference at all between a 500 hr GIA pilot and a 1500 hr CFI. Neither have a flown a jet and neither have much experience dealing with bad weather, mechanicals, etc... Now, I do agree that a 1500 hour pilot that's been flying freight in the NE in icing conditions in old Barons is probably a MUCH better pilot than either a CFI or a GIA grad.

If the GIA guys are so great, why did PCL send the last bunch of 'em packing and are refusing to hire any more?

The FAA and NTSB are on the company's a$$ because of the 2 accidents to hire more high-time pilots. Were the accidents the fault of low time pilots? Absolutely not. Jesse (the captain of flt 3701) had 5000 hrs and 2 type ratings. Not exactly low time. The captain of the MKE flt wasn't even a GIA pilot, let alone low time. Of course, none of this matters to the FAA. Their knee-jerk reaction is to demand higher time pilots. Whatever they say, but it won't fix the many problems that this airline has when it comes to safety.

You think maybe the MKE incident wouldn't have happened if the captain had an experienced, non buy-a-job FO that couldn've helped him out a little more, or maybe recognized a bad situation any more?

The MKE accident was the result of many bad command decisions from what I've heard. Whether the FO was a 500 hr GIA pilot or a 1500 hr CFI would have made no difference. I don't want to get into the details of the accident that I've heard, but suffice it to say that the FO had nothing to do with it.
 
CapnVegetto said:
I believe him, because at 500 hours, you don't have the experience to know how to stay ahead of a jet.

Well said. At 500 hours, most can't stay ahead of a Gutless Cutlass, let alone an RJ.

Nu
 
PCL_128 said:
I don't think there's much of a difference at all between a 500 hr GIA pilot and a 1500 hr CFI. Neither have a flown a jet and neither have much experience dealing with bad weather, mechanicals, etc... Now, I do agree that a 1500 hour pilot that's been flying freight in the NE in icing conditions in old Barons is probably a MUCH better pilot than either a CFI or a GIA grad.

Much agreed here for the freight guys. However, take a 500 hour GIA guy, been flying in a 1900 in Sunny Florida with an ex Eastern scab in the left seat, no IFR, no nothing, for a measly 250 hours. (Probably about 3 months). Not to mention the fact that they're PAYING to work there. Then you take your 1500 hour CFI, Who's been teaching for about 1200 hours, flying with people that don't know what they're doing, sometimes in actual IMC, teaching and practicing every single day IFR procedures, single engine procedures. By the time I had 1300 hours, (right about when I got my first jet job,) I had lost more than one engine, shot quite a few approaches down to mins in actual, had an instrument student almost turn an airplane upside down on me in actual, flew a freaking 182 about 700 miles IFR from Little Rock, AR to Phoenix, AZ in bad weather and mountainous terrain, and seen student pilots and non-student pilots do more dumb things than I can shake a stick at. (Don't even get me started on dumba$$ things aircraft salesmen tell private pilots that believe them.) Depending upon where you teach, CFIing teaches more to the instructor than the student. I know it did me, and I'll say to the day I die that it made me a helluva lot better pilot than a 500 hour GIA guy.

The FAA and NTSB are on the company's a$$ because of the 2 accidents to hire more high-time pilots. Were the accidents the fault of low time pilots? Absolutely not. Jesse (the captain of flt 3701) had 5000 hrs and 2 type ratings. Not exactly low time. The captain of the MKE flt wasn't even a GIA pilot, let alone low time. Of course, none of this matters to the FAA. Their knee-jerk reaction is to demand higher time pilots. Whatever they say, but it won't fix the many problems that this airline has when it comes to safety.

This is precisely what my friend working there told me. And the bad thing is, with no pay during training, and no hotel during training, they can't get any high time pilots to come work for them. Now they're screwed because since the company requires 3000 hours to upgrade, all these 500 hour wonders that they've been hiring don't have enough time.....result: street captains. Nothing but bad management. There is a reason that corporate insurance companies won't insure copilots without about 2000 hours and some jet time. Because NOTHING equals experience. You don't get it pulling gear in a 1900 in sunny Florida for 250 hours while the ink is still wet on your commercial ticket. You might make it through training, but you're still not READY. Training is still training, and anyone can pass a checkride if you give them enough chances. Not to fly a 50 seat , $30 million dollar jet into the busiest airports in the country in bad weather. How many times do you fly a perfect approach profile in real life? Rarely. Every time it's "we need 210 to the outer marker," or slow to your final approach speed 15 miles out, you're #10 for landing."



The MKE accident was the result of many bad command decisions from what I've heard. Whether the FO was a 500 hr GIA pilot or a 1500 hr CFI would have made no difference. I don't want to get into the details of the accident that I've heard, but suffice it to say that the FO had nothing to do with it.

Yup, you're completely right, and even though the captain was responsible by the book, the F/O should've recognized a bad situation and intervened. That's your JOB. That's why there are two of you. So what if you're on probation? I'd rather have my life than my job. When I was a probationary airline F/O, I had to take the controls from a captain 3 times. (Believe it or not, it was the same guy 3 times, in one bid.) By the manual, at my airline, the procedure was 'warn, warn, warn, take." If you see something unsafe, it's your JOB. It was beat into our heads during training. "Don't let a captain doing something stupid kill you." The guy set off a stick shaker on final approach, got WAAAAY too slow picking through bad weather at 370, and would've flown us straight through a level 5 thunderstorm had I not turned the heading bug because he coudn't get permission from ATC. By the book I went...'warned him, warned him, warned him, took the airplane.' Of course, I was probationary, I had about 200 hours in the airplane, but I didn't care. When he threatened to call the chief pilot on me, I told him fine, let's call him together, I'll tell him exactly what you did, exactly how I followed the ops manual to stop it, and we'll see what happens. That shut him up real fast.

Now that I'm a captain....all my copilots know my procedure. If you think I'm doing something stupid, tell me. If you don't like anything, tell me. If you think you've got a better way of doing it, I want to know about it. I'm ALWAYS looking to get better. We'll talk about it, if it makes you uncomfortable enough, even if it's still safe, I'll quit doing it. If it's unsafe, and I continue doing it after you warn me 3 times, then I'm a dumba$$ and you take the airplane from me. But ONLY AFTER WARNING ME 3 times. Fighting over controls is even more dangerous. We're a team, and we work together. It's amazing how many accidents could've been prevented in the past if FO's would step up and take the airplane from a dumba$$ captain doing something stupid.
The best captains I've flown with are the ones that treat it as a team concept. CRM people, the feds preach it, the airlines preach it, the corporate sim trainers preach it.....and there is a reason for it.

OK, off my soapbox now. :)
 
CapnVegetto said:
Now that I'm a captain....all my copilots know my procedure. If you think I'm doing something stupid, tell me. If you don't like anything, tell me. If you think you've got a better way of doing it, I want to know about it. I'm ALWAYS looking to get better. We'll talk about it, if it makes you uncomfortable enough, even if it's still safe, I'll quit doing it. If it's unsafe, and I continue doing it after you warn me 3 times, then I'm a dumba$$ and you take the airplane from me. But ONLY AFTER WARNING ME 3 times. Fighting over controls is even more dangerous. We're a team, and we work together. It's amazing how many accidents could've been prevented in the past if FO's would step up and take the airplane from a dumba$$ captain doing something stupid.
The best captains I've flown with are the ones that treat it as a team concept. CRM people, the feds preach it, the airlines preach it, the corporate sim trainers preach it.....and there is a reason for it.


Awsome post Veg.
 
NEWSOUTH said:
Actually we were being paid block....at 150% for an extension. Thanks anyways.

Oh yea .......good luck.

I was talking about the overtime for the leg; the extra flight time we got for doing the go-around. 9E pilots only start getting paid overtime once you exceed 15 minutes of overtime, and as such, if I were a 9E pilot during this go-around I wouldn't have gotten paid for the extra flying.

Since you have no experience with block-or-better, I can only fault you for being ignorant, not stupid.

Look, you guys need to face the fact that 9E has a problem. I have never said all 9E pilots suck, just the system at 9E as a whole sucks and that some pilots are a part of that problem. Believe me, we have sh1tty pilots too, but in the six years I've been here there were only 2 pilots I've flown with that I thought were unsafe. One because of skill, and one because of attitude. Air Transportation is a management of risks, and XJ does a good job of limiting those risks, hence our safety record. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LUCK! Recent history has shown 9E is very poor at managing those risks, and until something is changed fundementally, 9E will continue to have bad "LUCK."

What I can't beleive is that you guys are accepting this as status quo. If I were you, I would be all over my MEC to get the company to change something. You simple can't continue to operate this way!

The first step in rehabilitation is admitting you have a problem, if you don't think you have a problem, you're part of the problem!
 
Every airline has it's share of stupid mistakes. Mesa damaged an ERJ at ROA, I think it was, the one where the captain briefed that going missed was not an option. ASA landed an E-120 gear-up during a training flight, and of course had their infamous "logo light" approach into ATL a few years ago. Comair came within a GPWS warning of landing at a tiny general aviation airport near TYS last year. Even mighty Delta has been known to land at the wrong airport in Kentucky now and then. Plenty of mistakes everywhere.
 
Sorry man, but it was block...not trip value....I dont have time to educate you on the difference. Good Luck to you .....Oh yea this is off the subject of "my airline sucking", but PM me your W2 wages as a 6 year CA for 2004. I'll PM you my W2 as a 4 CA for 2004...we can compare male organ size later.
 
NEWSOUTH said:
Sorry man, but it was block...not trip value....I dont have time to educate you on the difference. Good Luck to you .....Oh yea this is off the subject of "my airline sucking", but PM me your W2 wages as a 6 year CA for 2004. I'll PM you my W2 as a 4 CA for 2004...we can compare male organ size later.

First of all, I know you don't get block or better.

Second, I have all the right in the world to call 9E a sh!ty airline, because they have dozens of documented instances where they put NW passengers in harms way. My 9E crashpad roomate keeps me well informed on the calamities of your "aviators" and company. Including the PP presentation that your fearless leader put out that labeled XJ as your #1 enemy. What a joke!

Third, a W2 means nothing if you don’t back it up with what you flew, when, and what you got paid for it. I could easily make $80,000 to $85,000 as a Saab Captain if I never went home. Therefore, I’m going to send you a PM with an Excel spreadsheet, that clearly shows what I made, what I flew, and what I got paid for it. I want the same from you.

I also challenge you to list one, just one thing that makes 9E a class act airline, so I can stop telling friends and family to avoid 9E travel at all cost.
 
AvroJockey said:
First of all, I know you don't get block or better.

Sorry, but you don't know as much as you think you do. On legs that don't have an established trip value we get paid for block. That means that when he went around for the XJ dumba$$'s mistake he was getting paid. He didn't have to wait the 15 minutes.
 
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When Are You Guys Going To Grow Up, And Realize That Your Airline Needs To Be Fixed!

How Can You Write Off The Lives Of Your Fallen Comrads As Growing Pains?

"everyone Has Crashes!"
"everyone Makes Mistakes!"
"everyone Has Had A Major Hull Loss!"

Bs.
9e Needs To Be Fixed Or More People Are Going To Die!

Hopefully, The Ending The Gia Program Is A Step In The Right Direction.
 
Can Any one tell me how many aircraft 9E has lost or scraped??

I can and it is not Good, the airline has been the same since Mike Owned it. If fact some of the upper bass are still there. Thats why the Airline needs Fixed--fire the lot of them and come in with a group that thinks safty first!!!!!!
 
AvroJockey, I don't deny that PCL has serious safety issues to be worked out (we obviously do), but the fixes that are being put into place are not really fixes at all. Killing the GIA program is not going to fix the problem at all, because the GIA pilots are not the problem. I fly with captains time and time again that don't have a freakin' clue what they're doing. Did they come from GIA? Nope, not a one. The problem isn't the GIA pilots, the problem is the training department and management's attitude towards safety.

The training department needs to shape up and management needs to focus on safety instead of savings. Whether you start with a 500 hr GIA pilot or a 5000 hr CFI, both need to be trained in jet aerodynamics, high altitude ops, advanced aircraft systems, etc... Killing the GIA program and bringing in CFI's that don't know anything more about high altitude flight isn't going to stop the next guy from climbing to an altitude that is unsafe. Killing the GIA program and hiring CFIs that have never deiced an airplane before is not going to stop the next dumba$$ from coming along and asking for type 4 because "there's a high overcast today." I could go on but I think you get my point. We need to focus on changing the fundamentals of the training program. If we just change who we hire and don't change the training, then we have accomplished nothing.
 
PCL_128 said:
AvroJockey, I don't deny that PCL has serious safety issues to be worked out (we obviously do), but the fixes that are being put into place are not really fixes at all. Killing the GIA program is not going to fix the problem at all, because the GIA pilots are not the problem. I fly with captains time and time again that don't have a freakin' clue what they're doing. Did they come from GIA? Nope, not a one. The problem isn't the GIA pilots, the problem is the training department and management's attitude towards safety.

The training department needs to shape up and management needs to focus on safety instead of savings. Whether you start with a 500 hr GIA pilot or a 5000 hr CFI, both need to be trained in jet aerodynamics, high altitude ops, advanced aircraft systems, etc... Killing the GIA program and bringing in CFI's that don't know anything more about high altitude flight isn't going to stop the next guy from climbing to an altitude that is unsafe. Killing the GIA program and hiring CFIs that have never deiced an airplane before is not going to stop the next dumba$$ from coming along and asking for type 4 because "there's a high overcast today." I could go on but I think you get my point. We need to focus on changing the fundamentals of the training program. If we just change who we hire and don't change the training, then we have accomplished nothing.

It's all in the training. If these new crews were trained properly we wouldn't have a big problem like we do now. Pinnacle's training department is a complete farce. They blow them through and want them on the line as fast as humanly possible. They gotta fly the planes even if they're not safe. Just get the planes in the air. It's all about profit and the "Bottom Line" which to me is complete bullsh*t. I'm for a safe flight operation. They could care less if someone requested Type IV for high clouds or needed 2 minutes for a heavy that just LANDED. Sorry to intrude here.
 
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I also challenge you to list one, just one thing that makes 9E a class act airline, so I can stop telling friends and family to avoid 9E travel at all cost.[/QUOTE]

Yeah it's amazing how we get these planes in the air at all. Should I warn the next XJ jumpseater I see that I'm not sure that it's 'safe' for them to ride along with us? Or do we just say a couple of hail mary's before takeoff?

Rook
Looks like a high overcast.
Better ask for Type IV.
 
PCL_128 said:
Sorry, but you don't know as much as you think you do. On legs that don't have an established trip value we get paid for block. That means that when he went around for the XJ dumba$$'s mistake he was getting paid. He didn't have to wait the 15 minutes.
Oh... SNAP! :) Guess he was getting paid block after all... ;)

I do agree with you, we really need "block or better" for ALL flying, not just non-trip-value established legs.

The problem isn't the GIA pilots, the problem is the training department and management's attitude towards safety.
BINGO!

And what do you suggest we MAKE our MEC do AvroJockey? You should know that in a multi-counsel MEC the pilots have little, if any real input. We can jump up and down to our heart's content and it won't MAKE the union do anything it doesn't want to do.

That aside, our MEC is definitely pushing for changes - they have been for several years now. But when the company refuses to even MEET with the Training Committee for 3+ years and has no CONTRACTUAL provisions to MAKE the company respond to MEC-initiated safety concerns, what do you propose the MEC is to do?

Anyone?

Welcome to the RLA; it sucks and renders you powerless except once released for self-help which is a LONG way off for us.
 
405 said:
It's all in the training. If these new crews were trained properly we wouldn't have a big problem like we do now. Pinnacle's training department is a complete farce. They blow them through and want them on the line as fast as humanly possible. They gotta fly the planes even if they're not safe. Just get the planes in the air. It's all about profit and the "Bottom Line" which to me is complete bullsh*t. I'm for a safe flight operation. Sorry to intrude.

I don't think you're intruding. In fact I think you're completely correct. I'll admit that my initial training left a lot to be desired. Where I disagree with you is that I beleive that the instructors I had for my upgrade were top notch. (All former CRJ drivers)Neither I or my sim partner had any problems at all during upgrade, O.E, Fed Ride. Just completed another PC with a sat, and had a sat line check. It's not all of us that have our heads up our a$$es. The problem is with standardization. Not everyone wants to fly the plane the way the 'red book' says it should be flown. This led to 3701. As far as the MKE issue, I beleive that the company pushed these guys. When it comes to being a good CA, I believe that a lot of the F/O's 'sleep' during their time in the right seat and have no idea what it's like to make a command decision. Getting the type rating is the easy part. Actually being a Captain is something that should be gained through experience. And that experience comes from taking the good qualities from the good CA's you fly with, and remembering not to take the bad qualities from the bad left-seaters.

Rook
Looks like a high overcast.
Better ask for Type IV.
 

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