pinnacle class cancelled

[LeaveAMess]

There is no way the ground school failure rate is anywhere near 50%. Ground school has been a joke so far, but it is self study. Get your flows and profiles down well in advance. If you work hard in training you'll make it though no problem. The gulfstream guys who are here are not being pulled out of class, some have just made it through their sim check rides, (however, their preferential hiring program is over). Anything you read on this site divide by two, and that’s pretty much what the truth is. According to HR, NW has accelerated deliveries, and now pinnacle is really hurting for new hires, they're asking the new hires in class for resumes of qualified applicants 1000/200. There is supposed to be 40 in the next new hire classes.

 

[ILSJUNKIE]

It sounds like there is a real problem with the training at Pinnacle. Maybe someone should look at the management or the training department.

 

[TinGoose1]

That USA Today article stipulated that you must be able to legally work in the US to apply. Pretty sad when you have to ask for a green card to apply at your airline.

 

[ILSJUNKIE]

The bottom line is this. Pinnacle better do something and do it fast or they will lose thier aircraft because NWA is FED UP!

 

[ataopsdave]

ILSJUNKIE


Why are you so bitter about 9E. Just 3 days ago you were so excited about interviewing here. It is just a hunch but my guess is that you didnt get the nod

 

[ILSJUNKIE]

ILSJUNKIE


Why are you so bitter about 9E. Just 3 days ago you were so excited about interviewing here. It is just a hunch but my guess is that you didnt get the nod

I did a little research about the airline and found out just how bad things really are. For what you get paid, there is no way I would put up with that. Pay is the worst. No pay during training. No room during training. Bad training department. Poor safety record. Permanently worked to death. Management hates pilots. No more growth EVER after 138 and may even lose planes. No upgrade for years=POVERTY FOR YEARS! etc, etc.. HORRIBLE! No thanks.

 

[dondk]

I did a little research about the airline and found out just how bad things really are. For what you get paid, there is no way I would put up with that. Pay is the worst. No pay during training. No room during training. Bad training department. Poor safety record. Permanently worked to death. Management hates pilots. No more growth EVER after 138 and may even lose planes. No upgrade for years=POVERTY FOR YEARS! etc, etc.. HORRIBLE! No thanks.

If things are that bad to you.. then don't work for 9E..

The no pay issue is an old issue.. been here (at 9E) for years and is not leaving anytime soon. You the applicant has to decide what is right for you and who where you want to work (and if you want to work).

Our training department is not our strong suit, no one will dispute that from Pinnacle. Then again we are not in the business to train peep's how to fly instument approaches. Some of the failure rates mentioned are because of dudes who can't set up and fly a raw data ILS approach. Some of the other failures are from dudes who after class hang out at the bar in the "Holi-dump" trying to pick up F/A's. These guys are not the brightest of the bunch either, do they think the company is not watching? Regardless, they demonstrate no interest for the job, a beer or a job.. .depends on how much you want that beer I guess? I guess those new hires at SWA, Air Tran, JB or whomever you can find at the bar trying to hook up..

As for growth.. lets talk again in a couple months.. it is not completely over.. we are not getting a second certificate just to hang on the wall and admire.

I am not doing a cheer for my company, we have a lot of problems, most are associated with some great growth over the last 2 years. Some due to a poor contract, and some due to some accidents. Before you point the finger completely at management for our bent aircraft.. read the NTSB reports.. there are multiple sides to each story...

 

[fly4ever]

dondk,

Any new certificate at Pinnacle will be used against you in contract negotiations. This is a fact. Don't believe for a second that a new certificate will benefit the current pilot group in any way over the next 2 to 3 years.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

ILSJUNKIE, how can you say for certain that 9E will "NEVER" get anymore growth?

You say that being an FO for years = poverty. Under the current contract, yes. When we get a new contract in 2 - ? years, probably not.

You made your choice, now go find an employer that meets you needs.

 

[ILSJUNKIE]

ILSJUNKIE, how can you say for certain that 9E will "NEVER" get anymore growth?

You say that being an FO for years = poverty. Under the current contract, yes. When we get a new contract in 2 - ? years, probably not.

You made your choice, now go find an employer that meets you needs.

Check it out. Pinnacle needs that new certificate or they are SCREWED.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=52664

 

[redflyer65]

ILS, Are you kidding me? Quoting someone else from another thread? I think Mesaba will get some 44-seaters, but this stuff has been running rampant without anything to back it up.
Our new certificate is in the works, and well most likely be 70-seat CRJ's flying for a new partner. And of course its a concern during negotiations, but I think management will try to use it against us somewhat. But in the end, it will only make it easier to use us. Two SOC's is an expensive proposition for a mirror certificate. (Thats how they are working it with the FAA) Time frame? Not sure. But even I won't believe it completely, until I see it.

 

[405]

Uh...

Did anyone see this little disclaimer on Towelie's post about the XJ CRJ's?

Okay. Just messing with you. Nobody knows, and nobody knows.

 

[fly4ever]

redflyer65,

Not only is that other thread bogus but your post is as well. If you think for a minute that NWA is going to let you operate 70 seaters for a competing airline while you fly under contract to them you're crazy.

Look at what XJ has been through the past few years and 9E before us. There's also the small item of Pinnacle's lack of safety record. Hmmm, FAA approval for a larger aircraft anytime soon, I think not. Sorry to burst your kool-aid drinking bubble.

But then again, I could be totally wrong and NWA, Pinnacle management, and the FAA will certainly see how your pilot group deserves not only a great contract but nice, new, shiny 70 seaters to fly for whomever given how your entire company has demonstrated its ability to operate the smaller variety. Just to be sure, you guys/gals better sign on the dotted line at the first offering.

WAKE UP!

Fly

 

[Carl_Spackler]

If anyone thinks the FAA will not approve a new certificate because of a crash, think again. All of the fingers will point to the pilots. If you go back a few years, a J31 crashed in northern MN, but the FAA approved not only a bigger plane, but a jet. FedEx has has some crashes, but they will get approved to fly the A380. American, Eagle, Valuejet...

I hope everyone is knocking on wood when they are talking about Pinnacles safety record. Just when you think it will never happen to your airline.....

 

[redflyer65]

Fly4ever,
I stated I'd believe it when I'd see it. But if you think that Pinnacle management isn't actively seeking a second certificate, then you plainly don't know what your talking about.
When I first heard the news, I thought it was just a management ploy during negotiations. It's not just a ploy. Will they use it against the pilot group anyway? Of course they will. Anyone could see that one coming a mile away.
This plan for a second certificate was brought to the board at the recent board of directors meeting. It was approved. The first step in the process was to acquire a bond for financing current aircraft from Northwest. That was completed. Fly4ever, do you really think they would take out a multi-millon dollar bond for no reason than to scare the pilot group?
Secondly, if you had read the ASA agreement you would have known that Pinnacle is satisfying the ASA conditions for additional flying. They will be able to fly for whomever they please. There is no restrictions in the ASA on aircraft size, as long as it's not flown for NWA under the current scope clause. One thing is for sure, Pinnacle management is putting out bids for additional flying and looking for other sources of revenue, not just boot strapped to NWA.
Why hasn't Mesaba done the same thing? Not sure. But I'm sure there are restrictions in that ASA as well. I'll be the first to admit that I haven't read that one, and don't know what the stipulations are.
If anyone had a bogus post here, it may have been you. Sorry.

 

[Lear70]

Management isn't looking for a 2nd certificate, they're building one in-house.

This was covered during the "Flight Plan for The Future" meeting that Phil came out with the mgmt types on the road and talked about. We're getting our house compliant with some new FAA standard required by 2007 which requires adjustments to nearly every part of the operation. As the FAA approves each section, a 2nd certificate has that section added to it as well. When they finish (mid-to late this year), they will have a shiny unused 2nd certificate with CRJ's already on it and no associated baggage.

Will they use it to tease us with bigger aircraft? Yep. Will it work? Nope. Not interested in making less or equal money flying bigger aircraft and although I'm not perfectly satisfied with my QOL, I'll keep my 12-13 days off a month flying 95 hours and time out in November with the rest of the year off... They can keep their 2nd certificate and additional flying to themselves.

 

[Skaz]

so how long has these contract negotiations been ongoing ? and how long are they still gonna take?

 

[fly4ever]

redflyer65,

You, son, are the one who doesn't have a clue. Northwest may have turned you into a publicly held company but they still own your board and a controlling interest through NWA board members. A second certificate will go under a holding company, not under the Pinnacle Airlines name. Then you will have non-union labor wages and benefits to deal with during your negotiations. Your ASA is a much larger document then the perspectus that investors saw prior to the company going public. There are many details in that ASA which are not easy to decipher unless you are a corporate lawyer. NWA controls and will decide when and how Pinnacle or it's holding company will be allowed to perform flying for someone else. They have much more at stake in Pinnacle than anyone else and they aren't about to jeopardize that position.

Carl,

It's much easier to add another aircraft to an existing certificate. All of your examples are just that, an addition to an existing certificate. It is much harder to get a brand new certificate approved and the FAA does look very hard at the current certificate holder's history and current list of problems when deciding those issues. Obviously the approval for a completely new certificate will/may occur at some point and it is very common for a certificate holder to "shadow"(my word) or copy another certificate that has an approval history thereby making it much easier for the FAA to put it's stamp on the new certificate.

Pinnacle's management is every bit as much a puppet to NWA as XJ management is and that will not be changing anytime soon. Pinnacle is not trying to buy it's way out from under NWA as some of you seem to think. NWA needed cash and the bond provided money because NWA decided they needed money. Not because Pinnacle wanted to get out from under their thumb.

I think I've finally hit my limit on discussing this with you for this month. It will be interesting to see how the next year or three unfolds for you and your negotiations.

Still willing to walk with you on the picket line,

Fly

 

[redflyer65]

Fly4ever, I like how you have so much insight to whats going on at Pinnacle. But the more you talk, it just shows how little you know. I suggest you re-read Lear70's post. They are in the process of building the certificate in-house. But obviously, you just don't get it.

Thanks for the offer to walk the line with us, I would have gladly done the same for you.

 

[flap operator]

Red - why do you think NWA will treat PNCL any different from Mesaba when it comes to flying outside of the red tail? Regardless of where the certificate is held, NWA still controls your destiny and will make it hard for you to grow outside of their control.

As mentioned before, you may be a public company now, but NWA sits on your board... and it requires the BOD to make things happen. Your profits are simply cash flow to NWA... they call the shots, not Trenary. If you think that Trenary is the one to be hailed for your growth, you've been drinking too much Koolaid and reading your Climb and Maintain.

Do you actually think that NWA will truly allow PNCL holdings, which was built indirectly by NWA, to take their profits, which are indirectly NWAs and fl for another airline that is an NWA competitor?

NWA still "owns" both Mesaba and Pinnacle... regardless of any IPOs or public stock offerings.

Get ready for the whipsaw... Fly4ever is making complete sense and is not far off on his assertations.


FO


BTW - you said you WOULD HAVE gladly walked the line with us. Did you participate in info picketing like other PNCL pilots? Just curious.

 

[Dodge]

NWA decides where, what and who 9E and XJ fly. Period. To date, NWA has not been to keen on having Big Sky out there flying for any of the competitors, otherwise, you would see a bunch of new little jets flying around in ______ colors with brand new hires in every position but the pilots. Huge cost savings there to not have an established list of senior mechanics, agents, FA's, etc....

But, since NWA controls XJ, nothing has happened with them. The same will be true for 9E.

 

[CptOver]

To all that think otherwise...

It is foolish to think that PNCL will create some "alter ego" certificate that will fly for another carrier. It is also foolish to think that your management "BOD" is in anyway trying to seperate from NWA or is trying to "Grow" the company in anyway that NWA doesn't want to manipulate it. PNCL's SLC was put in place by NWA during the IPO, NWA or NWA employees are the majority stockholders and their are NO decisions made at PNCL that are not sent down from NWA. (Same as XJ)

With that being said, they may in fact create a seperate certificate (most likely under a holding company) that your management will say is to grow the company and will benefit all. DON'T BELIEVE IT! I will give you several manipulations of the same preverted dream....Freedom, Big Sky, GoJets, Republic to name a few. Your management will say that they are going to staff this new certificate with non-union poverty level positions and use this info to whipsaw your current unions into concessionary contracts. If you believe the pipedream, you lose.

PNCL and XJ are C scale NWA pilots and they use us against each other as thus. I can remember in early 99, having a conversation with a 9E pilot in MEM on the crewbus and that pilot saying something to the affect of "Mesaba is going to get the CRJ's, they have 1000 pilots, have been growing quickly the last couple of years, and they are NWA's golden child." As a newhire at XJ I believed it, thought there was no way 9E's 300 pilot airline was going to get all that flying, boy were we wrong. Don't for a minute think because NWA has grown PNCL 400% in the last 4 years that it will continue, they used PNCL growth against XJ and NWA in their negotiations, that is all. The pendelum is getting ready to swing. Your management knows that they are making a ton of money off of your current low paying contract and they know that your MEC will have alot of power during negotiations because of this. So they will do ANYTHING to keep your MEC's power at bay by losing flying (at least utilization), a seperate certificate, and some type of statement like "to compete with other regionals for growth under ____ airline, we have to have a growth contract."

I am posting this not to flamebait, but to state facts that HAVE happened at XJ, NWA and a multitude of other regionals in their recent negotiations and you are going to have to face it at PNCL. I believe the last couple of posts from XJ pilots are basically saying the same thing. It's gonna happen and we (XJ pilots) are behind you and WILL walk the line with you. Not just a show near the end of negotiations, but whenever or wherever the ant line starts. This crap has to end....

"Us against them" doesn't mean XJ pilots against PNCL pilots, it should mean and needs to mean "Us against Management." Both our own managements, but more importantly NWA management.

 

[CptOver]

One more thing, NWA spun off the PNCL IPO for one thing only, cash. They weren't sure they could generate the total amount they wanted, ie the false starts on the IPO, but took the gamble. In the end it didn't generate as much as they wanted, so they manipulated the system to take some of PNCL profits, ie. the bond. NWA will prostitute your company in any way they can to take at least a percentage of your profits. NWA is a shrewd company, always have been, and they will prostitute PNCL in anyway they can to offset losses at mainline or line their own pockets.Its us against them. If you want a good contract, stay the line, don't trust your management and get envolved in every vote your union has. Show your management that your MEC has the total backing of the pilot group and DEMAND your contract increases.

 

[dondk]

. NWA is a shrewd company, always have been, and they will prostitute PNCL in anyway they can to offset losses at mainline or line their own pockets.Its us against them.

Most of us know this, hence why the other certificate... XJ has Big Sky, but your great scope clause shuts down that certificate to be whored out. PNCL does not have as good as a scope clause in my opinion. Let's be realistic, XJ held out in the last contract, many of us at PNCL are not too sure the majority of the pilot group will hold out.

Take a nice new shiny 70 seater and wave it at our lifer reserve Captain's.. do you think they would pass on it? Take the same a/c and wave it at our low time first officers with a "promise" of a quicker upgrade, do you think they would say no? remember we have a good deal of guys on the property who have alreaady whored themselve out via GIA, what difference would it make now?

You slam the brakes on growth at PNCL and mgmt has no leverage in the contract talks. NWA found that out with XJ and parking some Avro's.. did nothing but move you closer to a strike. I would expect the same with ours, so my guess they have to use the carrot instead of taking flying away.

NWA is in the business to keep us as a cash cow for now, unfortuantley we are cheap labor and yes.. we are whores as well.. sad but true...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'll keep my 12-13 days off a month flying 95 hours and time out in November with the rest of the year off... They .

They can call one in for Part 91 flights, repos, mx flights etc....

 

[Simon Says]

Ask any 9E pilot with SF-340 time what they think about a seperate certificate.

 

[DoinTime]

Ask any 9E pilot with SF-340 time what they think about a seperate certificate.

Huh? What are you talking about?

 

[redflyer65]

Flap, This is exactly what I'm talking about, people talking about stuff when they have no idea. I'm really not trying to start anything, and I think the majority of pilots at Mesaba are great people. But the Climb and Maintain is an ALPA publication, not a company one.

As far as walking the line, I would have had you struck. I was prepared to help out however I could. I didn't do the informational walks because I was working, but I did go to the Mesaba strike center on my day off to show my support and give them my name if they needed me. Met some great people there.

Capt., you make alot of good points and I think alot of it does boil down to whipsaw. We all will have to wait and see how it plays out. I've enjoyed the conversation and different view points, sure beats some of the other threads I've seen lately.

 

[flap operator]

Red - how can you say we don't know what we (XJers) are talking about? Anyone around XJ for the last 5 years or so have seen exactly wha tthe contract blues are all about. Anyone over at your company during the pulldown in MSP would know the same deal. Our points are that perhaps you might be a little unclear about how much NWA actually influences your company. Again, if you think that NWA is going to let PNCL operate a second certificate for another airline that is competing with NWA, you HAVE been drinking to kool aid. What your mgmt is attempting to do is no different than what MAIR did by aquiring Big Sky or MAG creating Freedom. Not to mention Republic and GoJet. So why would you think PNCL is any different?

I know very well that PNCL ALPA puts out CLimb and Maintain. There was however an article in the past by one of your association members that wrote an article regarding your growth. The gist of it was that the boyz on Nonconnah cooked up the growth plan. That's all I meant by that.

I see you flew the saab... so perhaps you were around when XJ was growing and you were shrinking. If so, you know what it's all about. If not... GET READY.
FO

 

[ILSJUNKIE]

Red - how can you say we don't know what we (XJers) are talking about? Anyone around XJ for the last 5 years or so have seen exactly wha tthe contract blues are all about. Anyone over at your company during the pulldown in MSP would know the same deal. Our points are that perhaps you might be a little unclear about how much NWA actually influences your company. Again, if you think that NWA is going to let PNCL operate a second certificate for another airline that is competing with NWA, you HAVE been drinking to kool aid. What your mgmt is attempting to do is no different than what MAIR did by aquiring Big Sky or MAG creating Freedom. Not to mention Republic and GoJet. So why would you think PNCL is any different?

I know very well that PNCL ALPA puts out CLimb and Maintain. There was however an article in the past by one of your association members that wrote an article regarding your growth. The gist of it was that the boyz on Nonconnah cooked up the growth plan. That's all I meant by that.

I see you flew the saab... so perhaps you were around when XJ was growing and you were shrinking. If so, you know what it's all about. If not... GET READY.
FO

The bottom line is.....XJ pilots should have stood up for what was right and not prostituted themselves. Now they are stuck with a below average contract with hopes that NWA will toss them a few new jets over the next few years. The mesaba union sold Pinnacle pilots out because they were scared to strike and now the pinnacle pilots have to deal with the pressures of being whipsawed by another airlink whose pilots dont care about supporting thier families.