pinnacle class cancelled

[Axel]

This is a cool thread. I was getting tired of the same ol' vitriol about CHQ and Mesa. Good to see all you sky-gods pointing your fingers of doom at a different airline for a change. Variety as they say, is the spice of life.

Oh, wait a minute, disregard.

This is just the same old tired stuff with Pinnacle cut/pasted/substituted.

We now return you to your holy (-er than thou) war(s) already in progress

 

[CapnVegetto]

It's about time that some of the buy-a-job progams started becoming accountable for putting unqualified people in these jets. Now management just needs to take some of this blame. When you pay peanuts and treat people like crap, this is what you're going to get. If you pay minimum wage, you're going to get minimum wage employees.

 

[Rook]

That's the quality of pilots pinnical has to upgrade


This is the comment I take offense to. I started as an F/O @ Express/Pncl. Got the time to upgrade and upgraded. Wasn't a low-timer, didn't PFT, got a crashpad during initial. If being PFT or not getting a hotel during your initial is the way you measure the quality of a pilot, then there are thousands of pilots here and overseas that must be unsafe. Don't make assumptions. Some of the best guys I've flown with have been high time, ex Boeing...or senior 9E'rs that did PFT...and even some of the newer GIA guys and gals are good sticks. For every one bad apple at 9E there are about 10 good ones.

Looks like a high overcast.
Better ask for Type IV.

Rook

 

[Rook]

All the Street Captains from when I was hired would NOT have come here without pay or hotel during training and because of that they got a bunch of guys who had lots of previous experience in everything from Falcon 20 freight to 747 freight (and a bunch of stuff in between). I agree that if the company paid for those things during training (at least housing and per diem), they would get a much higher caliber of pilot in the classes, but that's a separate (and very sore) subject.[/QUOTE]

Lear 70,
You're one of my best friends at the company but I gotta disagree with the last sentence. Remember, most of the street CA's were F/O's @ eagle and due to their higher time (except one with a Comm/Inst that I can remember)they all got hotels. The 135 turbojet CA's didn't get the hotels because they weren't prior 121. Why did being 121 matter? I was prior 121 before 9E but was hired as an F/O. I don't like to think that I accepted the job because of my low-caliber flying skills. It was either 9E, unemployment,(with eventual recall)or an offer at Mesa. Still think I made the right choice.

Rook
(I know you dont mean any ill will Lear, we've drank beer before and I'm sure will again some time down the road)

 

[100LL... Again!]

A poor pilot blames his company's training program.

Training is to make you comfortable with the aircraft and company procedures.

Judgement, positional awareness, common sense, etc. are not expected to need training. Getting lost on an IAF? Good lord, what has the profession come to? But let's blame the training program, since we don't want to bring up the uncomfortable topic of pilots who don't know what they are doing.

The company can't teach you everything, but apparently that is expected.
And THAT makes for GREAT negotiating capital, doesn't it?

When even basic skills are deficient, what do the demands for better pay and respect sound like? Like a bunch of whiney kids who think they deserve the world. When will pilots realize that they don't deserve what they think they do simply because it is their own opinion?

 

[CapnVegetto]

I agree with 100LL. Training can only do so much. There are some people that just don't have what it takes to be PIC of a jet. Anybody can pass a checkride if you give them enough training and enough chances......but not everyone can command a jet.

 

[Rook]

A poor pilot blames his company's training program.

Training is to make you comfortable with the aircraft and company procedures.

Judgement, positional awareness, common sense, etc. are not expected to need training. Getting lost on an IAF? Good lord, what has the profession come to? But let's blame the training program, since we don't want to bring up the uncomfortable topic of pilots who don't know what they are doing.

The company can't teach you everything, but apparently that is expected.

100LL you are correct. Doing a full approach with an NDB proc turn into AVL, after turning inbound my F/O asked me why we weren't descending, I replied "because we have to be established inbound before descending." Now if this individual was the PIC they would've started descending without being established. And we probably would've been reading about them in the papers too. I can't blame the training program. We don't teach IFR procedures here. I blame maybe not getting enough hard IFR time before being shipped off to MSP/DTW and getting a baptism by fire. There are some pretty sharp F/O's that get through so this is in no way pointing fingers. Just my own humble opinion.

Rook

Looks like a high overcast.
Better ask for Type IV.

 

[CapnVegetto]

I agree with you too, Rook. What you said just completely proves the point of the buy-a-jobbers from GIA and the like getting jobs flying $30 million jets with 52 other people on board. Guys with that little experience have absolutely no business flying 121 jets. No matter how good your training is, at 300 hours, you don't know what the hell you're doing. Especially at the speed of a jet. When I worked at Mesa, you had the "San Juaners", (MAPD program at San Juan college), and you heard horror story after horror story from all kinds of captains about San Juaners freaking out in the cockpit, or not knowing what the hell they're doing.

It's scary, but hey, as long as there are jacka$$es out there that are willing to pay $70K for an $18,000 a year job, there are going to be scumbag management types that take advantage of it.

 

[xjlifer]

This is a cool thread. I was getting tired of the same ol' vitriol about CHQ and Mesa. Good to see all you sky-gods pointing your fingers of doom at a different airline for a change. Variety as they say, is the spice of life.

Oh, wait a minute, disregard.

This is just the same old tired stuff with Pinnacle cut/pasted/substituted.

We now return you to your holy (-er than thou) war(s) already in progress

Axel is my new Hero....that was the best post I have read in a long time!

 

[dondk]

I heard the same "insurance" possibility...

I can say that the most recent group (in the sim, near lesson 7 or better) were sent packing.. My mentoree and not called me back, so I don't know the scoop (yet).

 

[Workin'Stiff]

I completely agree with everyone in regards to having inexperienced pilots up front in a 121 operations. I'm sure everyone is insinuating this, but lets not limit the scope to strictly flying the "$30 million jet" in this conversation.

I might be bringing up a moot point here, but whether your flying for 9E, XJ, Eagle, Mesa, etc.; jets or turboprops; all require their own level of difficulty in daily operation. The reason I bring this up is because I have heard, more often lately, that these inexperience pilots should be flying the turboprops "until they develope their chops." I highly disagree. Depending on the legth of a route, the turboprop will do it just as fast as a jet... And when the rubber meets the pavement, we're all busy up front. Typically about the time you're starting to set up for an approach, we're all goin' the same speed up there, whether you're in a jet or a turboprop. So jet speed or not, there's no room for inexperience.

I'll step off my soap box now...

 

[CapnVegetto]

I don't think they should be flying the turboprops. They should get their 1200, fly some night freight, or some 135, get some real experience, and then go to the carriers.

 

[100LL... Again!]

I appreciate the reasonable posts.

One of the finest pilots I ever met is a PCL captain, so it is not against the group as a whole. It is against a group of people who think that shortcuts to success can be had with no costs.

Let's get real here - there are a lot of FO checks that are "pushed through" at the regional level. We all know and see it.

Regarding the FO in the above pst who did not understand how to fly an approach, that person should feel ASHAMED for their lack of basic instrument knowledge. Another fast-tracker, no doubt. Don't have time to be a CFII and get some experience - I want to be a hero in a jet!!!

Trainees.

 

[Lear70]

I don't like to think that I accepted the job because of my low-caliber flying skills. It was either 9E, unemployment,(with eventual recall)or an offer at Mesa. Still think I made the right choice.

Sorry man, I didn't mean anything about the guys in that class or most of the people who had solid backgrounds before coming here. We've flown together, drank together, admired tail together, and I would trust my family with you in the left seat any day.

The people that I have problem with are those who make up the majority of the classes these days: low-time pilots with no real IFR experience before they come here - the 500 hour wonder-kids (some are exceptions but most are the rule). I know the regionals have ALWAYS been a place for low-time pilots to learn and cut their teeth but we're pairing low-time CA's with low-time F/O's and hoping and praying that nothing happens? Eventually the odds will catch up with ya'.

I believe that paying pilots during training (at least per diem) and giving them housing will attract higher-time pilots who know their skills are worth more than what Pinnacle offers as new-hires. That's my personal belief, opinions may vary.

Rook, we are WAY overdue for another Irish Pub visit... I'm buying for the unintentional offense.

 

[Towelie]

I believe that paying pilots during training (at least per diem) and giving them housing will attract higher-time pilots who know their skills are worth more than what Pinnacle offers as new-hires. That's my personal belief, opinions may vary.

Here's what I don't understand about Pinnacle. Call it the great "hiring paradox."

Your posted minimums are: 1500 Total Time, 300 Multi-Engine and the completion of the ATP written. All hours requirements must be met prior to an interview, unless the pilot is interviewing through a Partner program.

Not too shabby, if you ask me. A new hire with those times should be able to do a decent job on line. Now with that said, why in the hell would you (read: Pinnacle management) allow "wonderkids" from GIA or interns that have basically no time into your program? Anyone in their right mind would agree that GIA is far from a great program. Not to mention you fly in Florida and then go to Pinnacle to fly in winter weather in the Midwest. WTF, O?

This post is not a stab at the Pinnacle pilot group. But it is a glaring red flag that your managment allows this to happen. It's like saying, "Gee... You need to be MORE qualified than most other regionals unless you buy your time from GIA or work your way up from Crew Scheduling." Again, WTF?

Where is Pinnacle ALPA in all of this? My airline is by NO MEANS perfect and we get the occasional moron. But please... if this type of thing were happening it would get nipped in the bud. You may say you have no control but these morons are bringing down your entire group, like it or not. No different than any other airline.

I just cannot understand why you can have such high mins at the front door, but the back door is wide open for any foreigner willing to drop coin at GIA or intern who would rather be a scheduler than cut their teeth getting flying experience.

I honestly don't understand it. But I'm guessing most Pinnacle pilots don't either. You guys need to have a management coup before they run that place into the ground.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

All Pinnacle pilots are not bad. However, as an operation, that place is inept and scary.

- Flight 3701 going to FL410 and stalling killing 2; plane destroyed

- Flight in MKE continues with hydraulic problem and goes off runway; plane totalled

- Flight in Montana turns the wrong way on missed approach and misses mountain top by few hundred feet

- Pilots ask for Type-4 anti-icing fluid on a clear day because "we will be flying in the clouds later on"

- Pilots asked for altitude and airspeed; after answering "6000 feet and 300 knots"; controller asks them to repeat; they say "6000 feet and 300 knots"; controller asks for a third time; they say "6000 feet and 300 knots"; controller says "umm... can you slow to 250?"; pilots having no clue respond "we can give you whatever speed you want

- More than 10 times the number of violations of any other airline operating out of the same FSDO, even though size is smaller

- Snowstorm shuts down entire airline; SOC can cope and NWA steps in

- And the list could go on and on. . .


I have friends who fly for Pinnacle. For the love of god, and the safety of my friends, the other crews, and the traveling public, SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE!

This is not flame-bait, people. This is reality.

Pinnacle does not have a monopoly on unfortunate mistakes.You'll see similar events at other airlines. It's easy to cast stones but as a good friend of mine likes to say......... there but for the grace of god go I.

Be careful out there. Fly safe.

 

[Rook]

That should about sum it up. How bout a moratorium on this thread?

Rook

Looks like a high overcast.
Better ask for Type IV

 

[ultrarunner]

- Pilots ask for Type-4 anti-icing fluid on a clear day because "we will be flying in the clouds later on"

Well, they just lost my business on that one. And I sent a note to my wife so when she books corporate travel, they will avoid that carrier. Not putting my wife on them either.

What a bunch of bone-heads

 

[405]

You (9E) guys need to have a management coup before they run that place into the ground.

You're right.

 

[SKYMASTER]

Is it true that one of the chief pilots at Pinnacle Northwest Airlink brags about not running checklists when he flies?

 

[Rook]

Well, they just lost my business on that one. And I sent a note to my wife so when she books corporate travel, they will avoid that carrier. Not putting my wife on them either.

What a bunch of bone-heads

I don't know dude...your wife looked happy to be in the DTW crew lounge last time I saw her. Wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more, say no more,

Rook
Looks like a high overcast
Better ask for Type IV

 

[Rook]

Is it true that one of the chief pilots at Pinnacle Northwest Airlink brags about not running checklists when he flies?

Only have one chief pilot Skymaster. Havent heard that rumor yet. But in MEM anything is possible.

Rook
Looks like a high overcast.
Better ask for Type IV

 

[SKYMASTER]

............

 

[Flybet3]

hmmm...

Is it true that one of the chief pilots at Pinnacle Northwest Airlink brags about not running checklists when he flies?

I heard that before, sounds about right. It wouldnt surprise me if that hill billy of a chief pilot does it. That guy gets on people for stupid sh*t when he looks like a drunk, and is such an A-WHOLE!! acts nice but once you're on, what a total complete DIKKK!!!!!

 

[flagshipper]

i heard from a guy that does interviews that they are done hiring GIA guys so all you rich b@$^hes who were gonna buy a job you will have to look elsewhere. No more "is it 23000 feet or flight level 230 i tell the controller?" I am not even going to try and defend us. We have a lot of dumbasses working at 9e and just to spare you I am one of them. I flew with a captain last week who felt the need to lecture for 21 minutes (i counted) about how i should never use the number 1 radio to call ops yet he set the shaker off 3 times on final. And YES i did report him to prof stds and they need to eval that punk but it has been here forever and even flew the jetstream so he is invincible. Some of these guys could lecture to death about the mel deferral sticker being the wrong color yet they can't fly the airplane above 600 feet with out the A/P engaged. And only pinnacle can have a 10 page post about when to stow the thrust reversers even though it says right in the book when to do it. I could go on but right now I am just trying to tolerate this job til I can go back to freight

 

[Rook]

i heard from a guy that does interviews that they are done hiring GIA guys so all you rich b@$^hes who were gonna buy a job you will have to look elsewhere. No more "is it 23000 feet or flight level 230 i tell the controller?" I am not even going to try and defend us. We have a lot of dumbasses working at 9e and just to spare you I am one of them. I flew with a captain last week who felt the need to lecture for 21 minutes (i counted) about how i should never use the number 1 radio to call ops yet he set the shaker off 3 times on final. And YES i did report him to prof stds and they need to eval that punk but it has been here forever and even flew the jetstream so he is invincible. Some of these guys could lecture to death about the mel deferral sticker being the wrong color yet they can't fly the airplane above 600 feet with out the A/P engaged. And only pinnacle can have a 10 page post about when to stow the thrust reversers even though it says right in the book when to do it. I could go on but right now I am just trying to tolerate this job til I can go back to freight

I think Kalitta Air is hiring

Rook

Looks like a high overcast.
Better ask for Type IV.

 

[Alchemy]

about how i should never use the number 1 radio to call ops yet he set the shaker off 3 times on final

holy **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**.

 

[Jimdandy]

"FOs pushed through" -- Maybe thats the problem you think that is normal. Not at my company! But it seems to be the norm at Pinnacle.

Don't forget the Hibbing crash and Memphis FSDO is the most lax FSDO in the world they would let you get away with just about anything thats another part of the problem.

 

[Simon Says]

Evergreen is hiring too. They do furlough quite a bit, but they now have a better section in their contract that covers furloughs.

Quickest upgrade in a 747 that you can find.

 

[CapnVegetto]

I never dreamed that there were that many idiots at Pinnacle. I know the guy that runs the sim up there, and he's a class act. Ex-TWA MD-11 driver, GREAT guy. I'm sure there are some great folks at 9E, but when you hire GIAers with 500 hours, that's what you get. Dumba$$es that don't know what they're doing. We had them at Mesa. What are some of the other buy-a-job progams out there besides GIA and MAPD?