Pinnacle, can You believe this....

[jetflier]

A Pinnacle CRJ arrived into SYR this past week. As the female CRJ capt pulled up to the gate, she kept the right engine running during deplaning, refueling and reboarding the passengers.
A NWA pilot parked next door observed this, and upon seeing the refueling truck attempting to hook up his refueling while the adjectent right engine was running, went down to the nose area of the CRJ to have the refueler wait for the CRJ captain to shut doun the right engine before he attempted to refuel the CRJ.

The CRJ female captain promptly met the intrusive NWA pilot and told him that Pinnacle airlines can refuel with a right engine running when the apu is inop and the airport approves it.

While discussing the safety of refueling with the engine running on the same side as the refueiling is occuring, the NWA captain suddenly noticed a pilot comming around the tail of the CRJ, from right to left.

The NWA pilot asked the Pinnacle captain if that was her co-pilot? She proudly and promptly replied,....." why yes he is....." suddenly it seemed that the light bulb suddenly illiminated and the Pinnacle Capt had a look of befuddlement on her face.

The NWA pilot then asked the Pinnacle capt that if that was her co-pilot walking around the CRJ,.....then Who was in the cockpit watching the controls and brakes while boarding passengers and refueling the jet??????

Unbelievable!


Ken

 

[88_MALIBU]

I hope thats not true...

 

[rightrudder]

What's unbelievable here is the NWA pilot interfering in something that was not his business. If he had concerns, he should have stepped up to the aircraft and spoke with the capt., not gone to the fueler. The FO should have stayed in the aircraft, perhaps the Capt. did not instruct him/her to do so.

The Pinnacle captains gender is irrellevant, but it looks like the poster here wants to make an issue of it.

 

[saabservant]

Groans....another story. I hear one every week.
Mesaba had a guy fired a few years ago; the "last straw" was leaving the aircraft with the fo on board and one engine running. He was an exception, a problem child. Every airline has a few... but the management and leadership culture of chief pilots, instructors, and check airmen usually identify these types promptly.
Is there any of that ability over at pinnacle? I can't believe that in spite of PFT and inexperience, there is nobody there who could step up and make a difference.

It is only a matter of time, or another accident, that all this dirty laundry gets out to the public, and then the stench will hurt all of us.

 

[mynameisjim]

I would ask the NWA pilot to reference the NWA FOM page titled 'Refueling with an Engine Running' (5.20.13). He can do it too!

Either a pilot or a mechanic should be in the flight deck though, but maybe there was one.

 

[88_MALIBU]

Havent you heard the term "Safety is everyones business" haha

 

[rvsm410]

Please! Give us a break here rightrudder, Safety is everyones concern, Its not interference...in the heat of the moment this pilot felt it was best to stop the refueling hazard, then to address the crew which he did...the only thing a agree with you about is the gender issue...

Regardless of the companies ops spec approval of refueling with an engine running or not, the fact that no one was on the flight deck is against every FAR in the book, it was careless and reckless disregard for everyone on the ground or boarding that aircraft. That Captain and FO deserves the full monty from the FAA....

Do you really think the captain should have to tell the FO to stay on the flight deck with an engine running???? where is the common sense here?

 

[willis]

Rvsm410
Believe it or not some you do have to tell everything, even as simple as this.

 

[jetflier]

Gender here is not an issue,....however refueling with an engine running is approved by pinnacle, but the engine running cannot be on the same side as the refueling. And I do believe that the FAA has some hartburn with a Jet enging running without anyone in the cockpit.....especially whilr refueling.....and really especially with passengers on the aircraft!!!!!!!!!

Ken

 

[Carl_Spackler]

Just because the guy was a mainline pilot in no way implies that he knows what he is talking about.

I could just see an airlink guy going to a mainline airplane to tell the CA that he/she is doing something wrong.

 

[Fly4hire]

What's unbelievable here is the NWA pilot interfering in something that was not his business.

Funny thing about 9E - they have the same paint job as the NWA mainline, are marketed to NWA customers as an NWA product, use our reservations and flight planning, wx, etc. In other words they represent the mainline as far as customers are concerned.

When these guys and girls wreck perfectly good airplanes, run them off runways, and other antics it is very much the concern of NWA pilots. This pilot groups conduct drags down our corporate image.

If he had concerns, he should have stepped up to the aircraft and spoke with the capt., not gone to the fueler.

Agreed.

The FO should have stayed in the aircraft, perhaps the Capt. did not instruct him/her to do so.

Should she have to? Says a lot about the quality of new hires there.

 

[jetflier]

DUHH...are you for real?
HELLO...any body in there?.........

 

[jetflier]

the post 12 was reply to 10

 

[dondk]

I don't have the actual procedures in my hands...

We are authorized to hot refuel based on airport permission.
The general procedure as I vaguely recall it was that 1 flight crew member remain on the flight deck, the other in front of the a/c as a fire watch. The off-side engine is operating and no passengars are on board.

I did a hot refuel many months ago and this is what I recall.

That does not mean the procedures have not changed, nor does it mean my memory in my old age is not failing


Don't know the pilot, don't know if the incident ACTUALLY happened, but as with ALL airlines.. anything is possible!!!!

 

[FL000]

Why wouldn't the NWA pilot go to the cockpit to point out the alleged hazard to the crew instead of Barney Fifing the fueler? I'd say he had a strong hand in helping the chain of events that led to the empty cockpit. MYOFB.

As we all know, accidents/incidents aren't usually caused by one thing, but rather a series. Looks like this series was stopped cold by a good parking brake.

 

[DoinTime]

Gender here is not an issue,....however refueling with an engine running is approved by pinnacle, but the engine running cannot be on the same side as the refueling. And I do believe that the FAA has some hartburn with a Jet enging running without anyone in the cockpit.....especially whilr refueling.....and really especially with passengers on the aircraft!!!!!!!!!

Ken

Ken....you obviously know nothing about approved Pinnacle procedures. Only the #2 is allowed to be running during fueling operations. Unlike the great big planes that you fly ours have the cargo door less than 2 feet from the #1 engine.

I do agree that it is imperative that someone be present at the controls during this operation but I'm also positive that there would have been if that paranoid NWA pilot had not stuck his nose where it didn't belong. Thanks to this "concerned" NWA pilot a greater safety risk was incurred.

 

[Cardinal]

The Pinnacle captains gender is irrellevant, but it looks like the poster here wants to make an issue of it.

Somebody had to say it. Now what if the poster had said. "So this CRJ captain shows up and leaves an engine running. He's an idiot!" Gender was included in that statement, as well. Stupidity does not discriminate based on race, creed, color, gender or sexual orientation. We all make a$$holes of ourselves from time to time.

 

[gearupflapsup]

When these guys and girls wreck perfectly good airplanes, run them off runways, and other antics it is very much the concern of NWA pilots. This pilot groups conduct drags down our corporate image.

Yawn........Pinnacle is the sole creation of NWA. The sins of the father are always laid against the son (I might have garbled this poor attempt at bible thumping) . Pinnacle has poor infrastructure because that is the way NWA designed it..... If NWA cared for its image it would focus on customer service instead of trading vendors , employees and passengers for next weeks cash.

 

[TinGoose1]

If the NWA pilot had gone up to the cockpit, who would he have spoke to...himself? You say you vaguely remember the procedure, apparantly so did this captain on this CRJ. If I see a potential accident/incident in progress I'm going to go right to the source, not walk around and try to find someone to talk to. I also think that if you saw a serious safety issue with a mainline aircraft, you would do the same.......or at least you should. Sitting back and watching an unsafe act is called professional courtesy and it can be deadly.

 

[timmay]

Funny thing about 9E - they have the same paint job as the NWA mainline, are marketed to NWA customers as an NWA product, use our reservations and flight planning, wx, etc. In other words they represent the mainline as far as customers are concerned.

When these guys and girls wreck perfectly good airplanes, run them off runways, and other antics it is very much the concern of NWA pilots. This pilot groups conduct drags down our corporate image.

Thats funny you guys do alot for your own corporate image like land at the wrong airport. In an airbus of all airplanes.

 

[jetflier]

I don't have the actual procedures in my hands...

We are authorized to hot refuel based on airport permission.
The general procedure as I vaguely recall it was that 1 flight crew member remain on the flight deck, the other in front of the a/c as a fire watch. The off-side engine is operating and no passengars are on board.

I did a hot refuel many months ago and this is what I recall.

That does not mean the procedures have not changed, nor does it mean my memory in my old age is not failing


Don't know the pilot, don't know if the incident ACTUALLY happened, but as with ALL airlines.. anything is possible!!!!

The Pinnacle capt came out to meet the NWA pilot as soon as he arrived at the aircraft.....

 

[jetflier]

HUH?

(ddisbelief at your responce)

 

[jetflier]

Ken....you obviously know nothing about approved Pinnacle procedures. Only the #2 is allowed to be running during fueling operations. Unlike the great big planes that you fly ours have the cargo door less than 2 feet from the #1 engine.

I do agree that it is imperative that someone be present at the controls during this operation but I'm also positive that there would have been if that paranoid NWA pilot had not stuck his nose where it didn't belong. Thanks to this "concerned" NWA pilot a greater safety risk was incurred.

I think he arrived after the Pinnacle capt had began refueling and boarding with no person in the cockpit.......Hello...............

 

[jetflier]

Ken....you obviously know nothing about approved Pinnacle procedures. Only the #2 is allowed to be running during fueling operations. Unlike the great big planes that you fly ours have the cargo door less than 2 feet from the #1 engine.

I do agree that it is imperative that someone be present at the controls during this operation but I'm also positive that there would have been if that paranoid NWA pilot had not stuck his nose where it didn't belong. Thanks to this "concerned" NWA pilot a greater safety risk was incurred.

PS Your Chief pilot knows the procedures and says you can't refuel with the engine running on the same side, why don't you tell him he doesn't know the procedures.......

frats,
ken

 

[DoinTime]

The Pinnacle capt came out to meet the NWA pilot as soon as he arrived at the aircraft.....

How do you know? Were you there? There is no 757 service into SYR. Obviously the supposed eye witness has an ax to grind with not only female pilots but Pinnacle pilots as well. If this is second hand information to you your pretty gullible to believe every word of it. Posting it on a web board is even past gullible on the stupidity scale. So that makes you either an imbecile or a vindictive SOB that hates fellow union brothers and sisters. Which one is it Ken?

 

[leardrivr]

Only one thing to say here!

Hirirng mins.
Total time: 1000
Multi: 100
Medical: alive with current heart beat.

Weak basic indoc. plus one year of poor mentoring and BLAM! Your a captain.
I have to pay more sometimes to make sure N.W.A. dosen't book my family on an RJ with one of the clowns!

A Pinnacle CRJ arrived into SYR this past week. As the female CRJ capt pulled up to the gate, she kept the right engine running during deplaning, refueling and reboarding the passengers.
A NWA pilot parked next door observed this, and upon seeing the refueling truck attempting to hook up his refueling while the adjectent right engine was running, went down to the nose area of the CRJ to have the refueler wait for the CRJ captain to shut doun the right engine before he attempted to refuel the CRJ.

The CRJ female captain promptly met the intrusive NWA pilot and told him that Pinnacle airlines can refuel with a right engine running when the apu is inop and the airport approves it.

While discussing the safety of refueling with the engine running on the same side as the refueiling is occuring, the NWA captain suddenly noticed a pilot comming around the tail of the CRJ, from right to left.

The NWA pilot asked the Pinnacle captain if that was her co-pilot? She proudly and promptly replied,....." why yes he is....." suddenly it seemed that the light bulb suddenly illiminated and the Pinnacle Capt had a look of befuddlement on her face.

The NWA pilot then asked the Pinnacle capt that if that was her co-pilot walking around the CRJ,.....then Who was in the cockpit watching the controls and brakes while boarding passengers and refueling the jet??????

Unbelievable!


Ken

 

[DoinTime]

PS Your Chief pilot knows the procedures and says you can't refuel with the engine running on the same side, why don't you tell him he doesn't know the procedures.......

frats,
ken

I have no doubt that our cheif doesn't know the procedure. He has only a couple hundred hours of CRJ experience and his entire mission as cheif is to ride out a high paying management job until retirement.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Only one thing to say here!

Hirirng mins.
Total time: 1000
Multi: 100
Medical: alive with current heart beat.

Weak basic indoc. plus one year of poor mentoring and BLAM! Your a captain.
I have to pay more sometimes to make sure N.W.A. dosen't book my family on an RJ with one of the clowns!

I always book around Pinnacle......Even if it costs more.
My family will not ride on an aircraft operated by these clowns either.

As frequent NWA travelers, we started this after the RJ at FL410 accident, I personally thought it was one of the more disturbing accidents in recent memory.

 

[DoinTime]

This is for the benefit of everyone that don't know sh*t about PCL procedures. Especially you, Ken.

6.2.6
Canadair Regional Jet (CL-600-2B19) Refueling with an Engine Running

Refueling with an engine running on the regional jet is not recommended as normal practice. However, under situations that would prevent dispatch of an airplane (e. g., an inoperative APU and lack of ground starting equipment), it is permissible.

The following guidelines apply to refueling with an engine running:
1. Passengers and flight attendants may remain on board.
2. Adequate restricted area shall be established for passengers and personnel away from the running engine. If available, jetways should be used to board the passengers.
3. Consideration must be given to wind direction and velocity. It may be necessary to reposition the aircraft to prevent wind from flowing directly from the refueling operation toward the running engine.
4. At least one pilot or qualified engine run-up person must be present in the cockpit during refueling. Passengers must deplane if maintenance personnel are monitoring the cockpit.
5. An observer who is able to communicate with the cockpit either by interphone or hand signals shall be present and in position on the ground to observe the fueling operation.
6. The operator of the fueling equipment must at all times be in a position to terminate fueling in the event of a fuel leak.
7. In the event any fuel spillage is observed, the operating engine will be immediately shut down.
8. Hydraulic pressure for braking and steering must be maintained during the procedure.

Only the number 2 engine is authorized to be running during the refueling.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

Ken, you started this thread. When you describe the incident, you used specific quotes. Were you the NWA pilot? Did you "hear" about it? If this is second hand information, you should have made that clear in your origional post, because it's implied that it is fact.

If you were there, you need to get your story straight.

went down to the nose area of the CRJ to have the refueler wait for the CRJ captain to shut doun the right engine before he attempted to refuel the CRJ.

So the NWA pilot went to the CRJ before the fueling started. ok.

I think he arrived after the Pinnacle capt had began refueling and boarding with no person in the cockpit

In the earlier post you said that the NWA pilot arrived before the fueling started, now you are saying that the NWA pilot arrived after refueling was started

was it before or after? At least tell us you were there and you are getting the fact confused, or you were not there and you are not sure what you heard from your source.