pilots with bad attitudes

[tittyjet]

Dude:

Don't get so wrapped around the axle about some comments on the radio -- I guarantee you that 99.9% of the time it's someone just cracking a joke. You know -- just giving someone a little good-natured sheeit. Quit being such a hyper-senesitive dork. Relax, man, it's really not that big of a deal -- you just might need to get a little quicker wit in order to retaliate. I -- for one -- think that stuff like this provides a little entertainment for all involved. Have some fun because that's why you got into this bullsheeit industry to begin with...remember?

 

[FLB717]

Pipejock,

My friend for 89 days I DID try my best to raise the bar to some success and failure. So please don't lecture me about pay, benefits and my brand vs. yours. The truth is the guys who have taken it in the shorts have had it taken from their high paid, golden bonus bosses who run the company as if they are the Hilton sisters and with as much fortitude and fore sight. My big bad company controls a large 1.1% of the domestic US market. So we have power over .7% or so of the majors and all their combined routes. Delta mean while wants to increase their market share by 11%, or nearly 3% of the domestic market in 05 all while nearing CH11 at a break neck pace. So who has the bottom line and the future in sight? If you want to look at who is lowering the bar in your terms look at those folks in the mainline office of Mid Atlantic. They have lost nearly everything, and are getting Eagle rates to fly an aircraft nearly twice the size of the same pay scale to AE. They are in direct competition with the very pilot group many had just been part of. So get off this "Critters tail".

 

[DenverDude2002]

Dude:

Don't get so wrapped around the axle about some comments on the radio -- I guarantee you that 99.9% of the time it's someone just cracking a joke. You know -- just giving someone a little good-natured sheeit. Quit being such a hyper-senesitive dork. Relax, man, it's really not that big of a deal -- you just might need to get a little quicker wit in order to retaliate. I -- for one -- think that stuff like this provides a little entertainment for all involved. Have some fun because that's why you got into this bullsheeit industry to begin with...remember?

If you we're referring to me, my post was meant to be 100% hilarious

 

[75M]

History repeats itself again, and some still aren't listening. Does anybody remember the last economic downturn for the airlines in the early nineties? It occurred amidst a recession, a war in IRAQ and high fuel prices. Does any of this sound familiar?

I seem to remember UAL, DAL, AMR, CAL, USAir, NWA and TWA all working under concessionary contracts at a time where LCCs were not even a blip on the radar. SWA was not very big in those days. In fact, when I was with TWA in '96, we were still bigger than SWA (and we were known as Teeny Weeny Airlines). So what caused "the race to the bottom" in that era. It clearly wasn't LCCs. More likely, it was result of competition, economic conditions and (mis)management amongst the big seven of the day.

The only difference these days is that there is a new scapegoat, instead of bankrupt airlines, its the LCCs. Except the argument that LCCs are causing the deterioration of the profession doesn't hold water, and here's why:

Everybody whose ever been involved in a concessionary deal knows that pilot pay and work rules can't save an airline. In fact ALPA, APA or whichever union could write a blank check to management at most of the Legacies, and that still wouldn't stop the bleeding. It would help, It might buy you some time until things improve, but it' won't solve the core problems (which normally include over capacity and bloated infrastructure).

As a result, management would likely want to reduce your pay and workrules to zero (if possible) in order to approach profitability. Without LCCs, there would be no profitable business model to emulalate (copy) and there would be no floor to the concessionary demands.

Does that sound far fetched? Does anybody remember what TWA and CAL Captains were making in that era? I know TWA Captains were around $100 for SWB pay and $90 for NB pay. Why work for so little? Isn't there a point where you just wouldn't be willing to do the job anymore (as one DAL Captain preached to me last week)? Before you answer consider you're options. Where else are you going to go and start over at six figures? What would you do? How many hours a week would you have to work? How long would it take for the earnings potential to kick in and how will you pay the bills in the meantime? Sell insurance? Use that engineering degree? C'mon. We're all smart guys, but airline life ain't reality. When you forget that your in trouble.

History has shown that after a reality check most pilots find it is better to take the pay cut, than it is to walk away because it's beneath you to fly for less than a certain amount.

Like I said before, at least the LCCs are providing a successful business model to shoot for. $153.00 at FL compares pretty well to what TWA and CAL were making in the early nineties. It stacks up real well against AA F-100 and MD-80 pay too. You cant blame SWA because they get paid pretty darn well for the equipment they fly. What would AMR have asked for if there wasn't a basis for comparison? How about Delta? Nobody knows. What's your best guess?

BTW, I hope for a recovery as fast as possible and a recall to all the furloughees ASAP. It doesn't seemlike it, but I think we all know that when the whole industry is healthy it's better for all of us.

Good luck guys.

 

[Pilotbob3]

I was at ORD near the end of 22L in a Cessna 421....asked if i was ready....before i could answer, some airline guy said that, " he's got to check his mags"! i thought it was pretty funny.

 

[FLB717]

75M,

Well written and thought out post.

 

[75M]

Thank you.

 

[mach none]

Critter was the callsign of ValueJet.

This is meant for some venting from my last four day. I am sure to hear allot about it.

The big question is why do some major pilots think they have the right to throw little pissy comments over the radio, when at times important things are going on.

IE. "Delta you are following a citrus 717 let me know when you got him in sight"
"yeah we got the critter in sight" now when they ask if I have delta in sight, I do not say I have a D not sure delta or there credit rating

"United follow Airtran out to 19L"
"Yeah we will follow valujet"

That one I had to respond to so (and yes before you start bashing about pissy comments I did) I just stated call us what you want but when you are furloughed send your resume to Airtan.

I am sure there are many others and it is not just Airtran but is there a reason. Do all majors hate the ones that are making a little money or are they upset we have A/C on order hiring pilots or do some of there pilots just get off on trying to be cool.

 

[Mugs]

Jetdawg,

You know the old saying about putting yourself in the other guys shoes? Well think about the pilots at the legacy carriers who have taken massive cuts in pay of 30% or more! The pillaging of their workrules! etc, etc. Why have they been forced to take these cuts?? To compete with the LCC's. So my question to you is how would you feel if brand x airline comes in and undercuts your airtran and offers the same service by having lower costs, which include lower pilot wages. Who knows how far things will fall. I dont think any of us would have imagined wages and workrules being where they are now prior to 9-11. I can see it now. 717 FO's topping out at $35,000 a year and Cpts. at $75,000. So I ask you, would you not have a few snide remarks for those pilots who have in combinations with other forces, caused downward pressure on your wages?

Good post pipejockey:

This is exactly what I see coming. Imagine say 10 or 15 years from now, an LCC pilot for a successful carrier that has gradually built up his work rules and pay through the collective bargaining process. What will they have done? They will have turned themselves into a prime target to be undercut. Then the analysts can talk about all the feather bedding in their contracts, which were really the cumulative result of many small gains over a long period of time. It is possible that airlines will become recyclable, just like the stuff you set out on the curb each week. Once the costs, especially on the labor front, become too great over time it will become necessary to trash the operation and start over. Just remember, there will always be a freshly minted FlightSaftey Academy graduate drooling over your jet. The money won't matter to a single 24 year old that needs nothing more than beer money to survive. It is the jet pilot Sky King adventure they will be looking for. At that point, everything that pipejockey pointed out will come into play.

 

[FL717]

Good post pipejockey:

This is exactly what I see coming. Imagine say 10 or 15 years from now, an LCC pilot for a successful carrier that has gradually built up his work rules and pay through the collective bargaining process. What will they have done? They will have turned themselves into a prime target to be undercut. Then the analysts can talk about all the feather bedding in their contracts, which were really the cumulative result of many small gains over a long period of time. It is possible that airlines will become recyclable, just like the stuff you set out on the curb each week. Once the costs, especially on the labor front, become too great over time it will become necessary to trash the operation and start over. Just remember, there will always be a freshly minted FlightSaftey Academy graduate drooling over your jet. The money won't matter to a single 24 year old that needs nothing more than beer money to survive. It is the jet pilot Sky King adventure they will be looking for. At that point, everything that pipejockey pointed out will come into play.

I could not disagree with you more.

Undercuting someones salary from another airline has NOTING to do with the sucess of an airline, or what you should be earning at your airline. If your theory is correct, then why was it in the late 1990's did Delta, United, American, Northwest all sign industry leading contracts, all the while the pilots of Southwest, Vanguard, Midway, Legend, Sun Country etc. all were earning cents on the dollar in comparison.

They were all undercutting the Majors, so I guess the Major Pilots should have taken pay cuts to survive. They did not and in fact took HUGE contract improvements, and yet 90% of the non-majors I mentioned still went out of business.

Its about keeping ALL business model costs (CASM) within your business model revenue (RASM) and not allowing the white elephant to die. Its not about pilot salaries, or what I make, or some future airline pilot group makes. And BTW - what other carrier pilots make is irrelevant unless you're trying to justify higher pay during negotiations, or until they are trying to justify lower pay during financial distress.

As an example.... why would USAir really have to look at AirTran pay?? What does our pay have to do with their business model. Under your theory, everyone could just match Southwests pay, and bingo... success. Well... guess what... that isn't happening, and now Southwest pilots are some of the best compensated and they still make money.

USAir needs to focus on what it costs them to operate and go from there, and that isn't pilot salaries, and they should have done that years ago.

 

[Mugs]

You are ignoring the fundamental changes in the industry that have occurred since the boom of the late '90s. The difference is that now, unlike then, it is impossible to achieve a significant revenue premium. It is rare now that a business customer, the former bread and butter of the legacy carriers, is willing to walk up at the last minute and plunk down a couple grand for a last minute round trip. Pricing power in the industry has disappeared. If anything, it is the LCC's that set the prices that the legacy carriers must scramble to follow (on the low end, of course.) You seem to be implying that since you have a superior business model (right now you do), that what happens with your compensation and bennefits in the future is irrelevant. With this kind of thinking, it is my opinion that you will one day find yourself in a predicament similar to the one that the legacy carrier pilots and their companies find themselves in today. As I said, as your costs go up you gradually will become vulnerable to a new entrant with new employees, back loaded aircraft lease structures, and a little Wall Street hype to attract capital infusion. What was it that your CEO said in that USA Today interview several weeks ago? He said it was all about (quote) "costs, costs, costs." If you don't think that you are part of that equation, then someday you will have a rude awakening.

 

[FL717]

You are ignoring the fundamental changes in the industry that have occurred since the boom of the late '90s. The difference is that now, unlike then, it is impossible to achieve a significant revenue premium. It is rare now that a business customer, the former bread and butter of the legacy carriers, is willing to walk up at the last minute and plunk down a couple grand for a last minute round trip. Pricing power in the industry has disappeared. If anything, it is the LCC's that set the prices that the legacy carriers must scramble to follow (on the low end, of course.) You seem to be implying that since you have a superior business model (right now you do), that what happens with your compensation and bennefits in the future is irrelevant. With this kind of thinking, it is my opinion that you will one day find yourself in a predicament similar to the one that the legacy carrier pilots and their companies find themselves in today. As I said, as your costs go up you gradually will become vulnerable to a new entrant with new employees, back loaded aircraft lease structures, and a little Wall Street hype to attract capital infusion. What was it that your CEO said in that USA Today interview several weeks ago? He said it was all about (quote) "costs, costs, costs." If you don't think that you are part of that equation, then someday you will have a rude awakening.

Mugs... I actually agree with some of what you just wrote here. I have ALWAYS stated that Major carriers were paying too much to SOME of their pilots on smaller aircraft. I know that isn't a popular thing to say in a room full of peers.... but regardless it is true. Maybe a B-737-200 Captain at Delta just can't justify $230.00 per hour. Maybe a 737-800, but not a -200. I know a B-717 that hold 117 passengers can't justify that, and shouldn't command that rate. I wish it could but its not practical.

And some of those Major pilot rates were a little unrealistic, especially if they rely on selling $2500.00 tickets.

I still contend that if you keep your costs in line with your model, you will be fine. And I still contend if you do that, you can pay a fair, yet capped wage to you employees. There will ALWAYS be a ceiling on any particular job... period, and if you break that... well guess what.

Just look at Southwest is all I can say.

Gotta go.... however..great perspective and dialogue from you as always.

Cheers.

 

[Mugs]

Cheers buddy, have a good night.

 

[RightBettor]

I got an idea... why don't we all go to work and just do our jobs while leaving the editorials off the radio! You want to hear yourself ramble off a bunch of drivel? Then get a CB radio and have at it.

 

[StarChecker]

I got an idea... why don't we all go to work and just do our jobs while leaving the editorials off the radio! You want to hear yourself ramble off a bunch of drivel? Then get a CB radio and have at it.

I couldn't agree more. It's sooo lame hearing an ALG guy call us whore-tauqua on LGA ground the other day. Or having Eagle guys turn their lights on just as they turn to face us pulling onto the ramp in YYZ this morning.

Wow...you guys really showed us. Ya...showed us and everyone listening/watching what tools you are.