"Pilots don't mind making $16,000 per year because it's a stepping stone."

[pipejockey]

Every time the government steps in in any given industry to control prices or wages, all in the name of "fairness", that industry gets screwed up, it no longer grows or prospers, and its members are ultimately all harmed.

I don't necessarily agree that it gets screwed up and its members are harmed. What about the industry pre 1978?

Most of us, including pilots and passengers, would agree that not anyone is or should be qualified to operate a transport airplane. The FAA should have a moral responsibility to artificially limit the pilot supply with additional aptitude, timebuilding, and training requirements. This would ensure that there is a limited supply of pilots, wages would increase, and only the best would make it to the flight deck. Pilots and passengers alike would win, without government having to mandate certain prices or wages.

I think we all should be pushing for ATP mins for ALL airline pilots.

I am in full support of a minimum of 1500 total time, and 500 multiengine with a multi ATP to qualify for any passenger airline. None of this BS where the company sets the mins ever lower and lower like they do at the puke regionals when they can't find anybody with 1500 and 500 anymore. Any other industry just raises pay, hefty signing bonuses, or other perqs to attract good people. Not the good ole airline industry. Pathetic!!

 

[pipejockey]

Thank you for your kind response. I wish no one ill will, but I see a continuing frustration with the job of being a pilot. Pilots are wanting to redefine the job to fit their expectation. These expectations do not match the reality of the market. A market that is driven by the consumer. There is a number of posts here were pilot seem to enjoy their jobs. But these individuals are slammed as the very source of all the problems in the airline industry. It is still a good job, with career earning in the upper brackets of US individual income.

Expectations? Why is it that we as pilots have had to radically lower expectations the past 8 years due to the almighty "market" and expect to earn only 40% what pilots of the 70's earn, and on top of that, now we must pay 1500 to 3000 a month for medical, and also not expect a pension after many years of service. Yet upper management and the executives who earned about 40 times that of their average labor employee, now can expect to earn(legally steal) 400 times that of their average labor, plus have fine medical coverage that I doubt they pay for, plus their severances and golden parachutes which keep getting more extravagant by the year. Shouldn't they be held hostage by the same "market"? There are far more Business MBA's today as compared to the general population than there were in the 70's. So whats your take on this one Mr. Management?

 

[pilotyip]

Upper Management?

So Director of Standards is upper management? Never knew that, thanks for the info. Yes I think upper management compensation is excessive, it is not tied to performance, and they appear not to share in the pain. What can you do about it? This is the reality of the current airline workplace. A. Go to work someplace else, maybe more disadvantages than advantages. B. Shut the place down to punish management, shows them who is boss, maybe more disadvantages than advantages. C. Move into management, work 6 days a week, be on call 24 hours a day, and probably make less than the top Captains at your airline. D. Do nothing and blame your situation on someone else. If you truly have the answer to make it like the good ole days it is your duty to step and start your own airline and steal all the pilots from the other airlines and put them out of business. BTW you seem unhappy, you will notice there are many posts from pilots here that appear to be happy. BTW@ $1500 to $3000/mo for Medical, where does that number come from as 66 year old man I can purchase BS/BC health insurance for my family for under$1000/mo.

 

[pilotyip]

Return to regulation?

I don't necessarily agree that it gets screwed up and its members are harmed. What about the industry pre 1978? !

Life was good for a few pilots under regulation. There are probably 4-5 times as many pilot’s jobs now as there was in 1977. Back in reg time it was about 90% military that went to the majors. Dereg opened up a lot of airline job to non-military pilots. To return to regulation would raise ticket prices, reduce the number of passengers, and therefore reduce the number of pilots needed. BTW SWA the low cost provider has near the top wages, this was done under de-reg. Flying is still a great way to make a living, pilots are not doctor's, if you want to be treated like a doctor finish med school, pilots are not wall street CEO's, if you want to be a wall street CEO, get into one the top 10 MBA's school. You are pilot you fly airplanes, if you like doing that you are probably happy. If not you are in the wrong line of work.

 

[superrav]

Tell me where else you can work 3 days a week, and make between $40,000 and $100,000? Obviously not all at once, but within 3 years you are near or over 40. Then, working your way to 100 as a captain for the next 15 years.

Not as good as it used to be, but my job certainly is not that hard. My previous career paid a lot more, but I won't "work" for a living ever ever ever again.

This is the problem, we make our jobs look to easy. I hope you don't talk like that to your non pilot friends.

 

[Nindiri]

Life was good for a few pilots under regulation. There are probably 4-5 times as many pilot’s jobs now as there was in 1977. Back in reg time it was about 90% military that went to the majors. Dereg opened up a lot of airline job to non-military pilots. To return to regulation would raise ticket prices, reduce the number of passengers, and therefore reduce the number of pilots needed.

I've pointed this fact out to quite a few FO's, and I usually get the same response, a blank look as if they have no clue. Unfortunately, many of them have no knowledge of the history of our profession prior to the day they got their first job. They need to read Gann and Buck and the others from that era for some perspective.

 

[Flybet3]

"Pilots don't mind making $16,000 per year because it's a stepping stone."

He has prospects of earning a six-figure income after he pays his dues.

He and his parents spent about $100,000 on his flight education, leading to a starting salary of about $22,000.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-wed-regionals-growth-0610-jun10,0,4248518.story

wah! wah! fu***ng wah!! How often do you homos have to keep posting stupid crap like this. This is the world we live in people!!!! There are always idiots that will work for nothing (us) to get some where in hopes of getting better paying jobs and there's always a bunch of greedy fu**s that only want more money!!! A.K.A CEO's. Man up.

 

[Herman Bloom]

And the medical school graduate is MUCH more educated than the average regional pilot. Regional pilots get the pay they deserve.

Well, they get paid what the market will bear. People on this board act like they are surprised when they get to the regionals and get that first (or hundredth) paycheck. Who, at this point, is unable to discover with a minimal amount of research what they stand to earn as a regional pilot (before committing to the investment of training)? It is really unbelievable to get on here and listen to so many of you (not all of you) whine about something you cannot change. Reminds me of why I got out: too much complaining, too many toxic personalities, too much bitterness, too much bs. I really do empathize with you guys, because I do believe (in principle) that you are worth far more than you are paid; but that is a moot point considering the financial realities of the industry.

And yes, med school graduates have an infininitely larger knowledge base than is required to become a professional pilot. That is just a fact. It is not an exaggeration to say that you could teach the knowledge required of a pilot in less than one semester at the rate they go in med school. And once they graduate, they start their real training in the specialty of their choosing (3 to 8 years). So the hard, cold reality of it is that doctors are not easily replaceable, and pilots are. Not "fair", but that is the nature of the beast.

Good luck to you guys.

 

[pilotyip]

Reality

Well, they get paid what the market will bear. People on this board act like they are surprised when they get to the regionals and get that first (or hundredth) paycheck. Who, at this point, is unable to discover with a minimal amount of research what they stand to earn as a regional pilot (before committing to the investment of training)? It is really unbelievable to get on here and listen to so many of you (not all of you) whine about something you cannot change. Reminds me of why I got out: too much complaining, too many toxic personalities, too much bitterness, too much bs. I really do empathize with you guys, because I do believe (in principle) that you are worth far more than you are paid; but that is a moot point considering the financial realities of the industry.

And yes, med school graduates have an infininitely larger knowledge base than is required to become a professional pilot. That is just a fact. It is not an exaggeration to say that you could teach the knowledge required of a pilot in less than one semester at the rate they go in med school. And once they graduate, they start their real training in the specialty of their choosing (3 to 8 years). So the hard, cold reality of it is that doctors are not easily replaceable, and pilots are. Not "fair", but that is the nature of the beast.

Good luck to you guys.[/QUOTE]Thanks nice touch of reality in a sea of name calling and other FI stuff.

 

[Kalifornia]

I really do empathize with you guys, because I do believe (in principle) that you are worth far more than you are paid; but that is a moot point considering the financial realities of the industry.

And yes, med school graduates have an infininitely larger knowledge base than is required to become a professional pilot. That is just a fact. It is not an exaggeration to say that you could teach the knowledge required of a pilot in less than one semester at the rate they go in med school. And once they graduate, they start their real training in the specialty of their choosing (3 to 8 years). So the hard, cold reality of it is that doctors are not easily replaceable, and pilots are. Not "fair", but that is the nature of the beast.

Good luck to you guys.

Thanks nice touch of reality in a sea of name calling and other FI stuff.[/QUOTE]

You just contradict yourself; at one point in this thread you're talking about how high school drop outs can fly an airplane just fine and why regional pilots shouldn't ask for more, then you say here that you wish pilots made more "(in principle)" and then end later with the whole pilots aren't doctors and can be replaced on a whim and just accept reality. WTF, over?????????

Because of this thought idiocy, at this point I'm convinced there exist 2 more illogical people in aviation then yourself. Your flight physician for approving your medical because you most certainly have dementia and any managers above you for not immediately dropping your pay to minimum wage because you've stated so many times you're in just for the love of flying. You know who worked for peanuts and loved to fly enough to get over the top giddy? The FL410 Pinnacle pilots who defied the laws of professional knowledge, responsibility and serious thought and crashed an airplane because of flying for the fun of it. Which makes your attitude and any influence you have on current or future pilots utterly dangerous.

I don't have all the answers, but if market conditions are going to define this profession, then the profession deserves at least some the respect it once had as Sulley's testimony to the media and congress after the miracle on the Hudson. I'm not for complete regulation, but we have a ton of regulations already for a reason, most are written in blood, and there's been enough blood lately to write some more to recognize that pilots flying for garbage wages are liable to create scrap metal. And while Sulley brought respect back to the profession by reminding people that a professional pilot is not made overnight, you out of hidden seemingly spite are trying to tear it down.