"Pilots don't mind making $16,000 per year because it's a stepping stone."

[relief tube]

"Pilots don't mind making $16,000 per year because it's a stepping stone."

He has prospects of earning a six-figure income after he pays his dues.

He and his parents spent about $100,000 on his flight education, leading to a starting salary of about $22,000.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-wed-regionals-growth-0610-jun10,0,4248518.story

this would have been partially relevant before age 65, regionals making up 50% of domestic flying, and majors payscales before the 30% hit, and the loss of QOL in some contracts, but not now.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

For all you people out there living in your fantasy land of lollipops and gumdrops, can you not agree that RJ FO's ought to be able to provide for a family? We aren't walmart greeters, or fast food workers, or school bus drivers....we are airline pilots with a significant investment in time and money for this job.

I give up.

 

[pipejockey]

Lots of complaints, but no one offer solutions to an industry driven by the consumer of their product. Name-calling and blame is easy, solutions are not. I have challenged posters on this sight many times to offer solutions, but have yet hear anyone come up with solution to go back to the good ole days without reestablishing Regulation. Which would be good for a few and bad for most. How about a meaningful discussion beyond saying pilotyip and ASA, etc, are the causes of the industry’s downfall. I bear no ill will.

Didn't I just offer up a solution in my last post? Yes, it would cost airlines a small amount, but it's the least that can be done to at least partially right the wrong which is RJ FO pay. At many airlines, you are actually holding CA long before you enter your 4th year of employ, so it wouldn't even be a factor at those companies. But it would allow the FO's at airlines that create a situation of having career FO's like at Comair, Horizon, and Eagle, to actually earn a livable wage.

I did some rough investigating. I approximate there to be about 600 pilots at Eagle with more than 3 years on the job who aren't anywhere near holding CA. To put these guys at 4th year CA pay would cost the company about 18 million. Yip said in an earlier post how insignificant management pay is in the grand scheme of things, well if you take the total annual compensation packages of the 4 highest paid people at AMR, you've just found 18 million dollars. For the compensation given to 4 a**holes you could raise the pay of 600 experienced FO's by 20 grand, and thus allowing them to actually have a life and a family.

It is just mind boggling to me how many people agree with some of these 20-40 grand wages for airline pilots at the regional level, but they don't say a word about the out of control compensation of upper management and the executives. People like Yip, and ASA say we need to adapt, and understand cost structure, supply and demand, and every other pile of BS they can think of to justify our wages which don't come close to equalling an airline pilots earning power of 30 years ago, or even 10 years ago. They say the industry has changed and that we need to accept these lower and lower wages. To what level, they don't say. I guess to whatever level management deems appropriate since they are in "charge". But why is it that upper management and executive salaries have far exceeded that of the cost of living for the past 30 years and that is ok, but we pilots have had to accept our salaries plummeting and having a fraction of the earning power we once did? Are the managers and executives doing that much more work now, while we do that much less?

Average executive compensation was about 40 times that of their labor 30 years ago. Meaning you'd basically have to work a lifetime to earn what an executive did back in the late 70's. And you know what, I'd accept that! But now it is 400 times that of the labor. So how about it all you supply and demand, and market forces quacks? Were there so many more people back in the 70's who were competing for these executive jobs that kept pay down to only 40 times that of labor? I would say people these days with an MBA in Business are a dime a dozen, yet their pay keeps skyrocketing.

 

[pipejockey]

I have challenged posters on this sight many times to offer solutions, but have yet hear anyone come up with solution to go back to the good ole days without reestablishing Regulation.

Who is saying we need to go back to the good ole days of pre-deregulation? To do that, we would need to pay Widebody Ca's well over $400,000
and FO's over $200,000. Sure it would be nice, but I think somewhere in between where we as pilots once had it and would currently like it, and where management wants it AND CURRENTLY HAS IT!! Whatever happened to give and take? All management has to do is threaten bankruptcy, or actually go into bankruptcy, and voila, they get what they want. The laws that allow that need to end. It is not labors responsibility to work for a wage that the company needs to swing a profit. We shouldn't be paid any more if the company is rolling in money, or any less if the company is bankrupt. Why can't we just find a dollar figure that is appropriate to the job at hand and keep it there and adjust it to maintain earning power year over year.

Wow, I can hear all the overzealous capitalists screaming now.

Why can't we have some laws that restrict new airlines from popping up? My goodness we can't have that! There would be less competition and fares might actually cover costs. We would be able to get rid of the overcapacity we have. Do we really need 35 flights a day between LGA and ORD between AA and UAL? Do we really need to go back to full regulation like we had pre 1978 for the government to step in and say 19 flights is enough, and allow AA and UA to decide which 8 of their flights they want to remove from their schedule? And if any other airline has the bright idea to fly LGA-ORD the government just say no!! I know, I know, the government will never do it because the almighty consumer will have a conniption fit because that would cause them to actually have to pay a fare that covers the cost of flying their sorry a**es back and forth. And everybody these days including our politicians seem to think that it is everybody's God given right to be offered a fare they can afford, where until up to 1978, many people just accepted the fact that they couldn't afford to fly. Oh the humanity!!

If this scenario would require a further 25% capacity cut on top of the 15% the industry cut since last year....so be it!! Yes, some of us would be out of work, but maybe then fares could be raised to a level that would accommodate paying wages somewhere between the "good ole days" and the unconscionably poor wages paid today. What's the matter with a little give and take huh? Plus we might even be able to operate a schedule on time. Well, on second thought, how foolish of me to think ATC could actually move 2 planes on time.

 

[pipejockey]

I give up.

Yes, I too should give up hope that all airline pilots be paid a livable wage, and not just the CA's.

 

[Chubaka]

The news article said that the regionals are a stepping stone. I ask this- "A stepping stone to where?"

 

[pilotyip]

An RJ F/O can not support a family. If you have family you should not take a job as a RJ F/O. This is the same as saying a USMC E-2 can not support a family on his wages, he should not have family. It is an entry level job. It is a stepping stone. How many RJ F/O's after they got the 1200 TT, applied at the night time 135 operator looking for IFR PIC's? How many tried to get hired as a TJ SIC at an on-demand company like USA Jet where they might make Captain in a couple years and be making 50K-60K? Where did these RJ F/O's expect their career growth to come from? Sitting in the right seat for 10 years? Time are hard right now, just like 1982, 1992, 2002, time will change movement will come.

 

[pilotyip]

It was a return to reg

Didn't I just offer up a solution in my last post? Yes, it would cost airlines a small amount, but it's the least that can be done to at least partially right the wrong which is RJ FO pay. .

Yes you did and it imposes a degree of regulation. For example new reg.

121.718.
1. A F/O must be paid at least at a level of 51% of the total wages paid by that company.
2. Wages determined in para 1 must be adjusted for the national cost living index for the pilots mailing address shown on the pilot’s certificate. 3. Wages determine in para 1 must be adjusted at least every three months to reflect the 3-month moving average of the DOW JONES 30 industrial movement.
a. An employee by filling out a FAA From 1206.2n can elect to use the NASDAQ moving index as the basis for pay adjustments.
b. An employee by filling out a FAA From 1206.2s can elect to use the S&P 500 moving index as the basis for pay adjustments.

Really if you have the answers, move into management and make it better for everyone. You can complain or you can lead. The choice is yours.

 

[gunfyter]

What is needed is a National union-like organization that limits the supply of pilots ... just like the AMA limits the supply of Doctors!

There is no shortage of people who would like to become MDs. I knew plenty of people with top grades in college who did not get accepted to Medical School.

We could do the same thing. Instead of MCATS we could have another aviation related aptitude battery of tests required before you ever get to apply for CFI or ATP. Like Europe.

We should require a 4 year degree for the ATP as well. And make it a BS not a BA.

Funding for ATP and commercial certificate schools need to be funded by employers after they hire you. You shouldn't be allowed to pay for your own certificates, never mind PFT!

So employers would have to screen pilot applicants like the military does... Since they will pay for all the flight training.

 

[pipejockey]

An RJ F/O can not support a family. If you have family you should not take a job as a RJ F/O. This is the same as saying a USMC E-2 can not support a family on his wages, he should not have family. It is an entry level job. It is a stepping stone. How many RJ F/O's after they got the 1200 TT, applied at the night time 135 operator looking for IFR PIC's? How many tried to get hired as a TJ SIC at an on-demand company like USA Jet where they might make Captain in a couple years and be making 50K-60K? Where did these RJ F/O's expect their career growth to come from? Sitting in the right seat for 10 years? Time are hard right now, just like 1982, 1992, 2002, time will change movement will come.

Why do I have to keep repeating myself? Would you have the nerve to tell an Eagle, Horizon, Comair FO that they are currently in a "stepping stone" position? I have never heard of a "stepping stone" position that requires 100 grand to be put out in for most University flight school programs and then be told they will have to work for an average of 35 grand for 10 years, or basically until they are close to if not over 40 years of age. All of the FO,s at the 3 airlines I have mentioned all had the reasonable expectation of no more that a 3 year upgrade, because they were all hired pre 9-11. So you are basically telling these folks they have no right to earn a livable wage until they are 40? You say things are as they were in 82-92-and 2002? WHAT??? After 82 and 92, things improved, but we are still waiting for the 2002 conditions to improve are we not? When did we ever have any sort of movement in this industry, especially at mainline, since 2002? There were glimmers in 2006 and 2007, but that was mostly due to the regionals taking more and more mainline flying with larger and larger aircraft. Which is why the RJ carriers need to provide a livable wage for all equipment and seats. Management has had a filed day since 2001. They have gotten back their B scale pilot wages by transferring an enormous amount of flying to the scumbag RJ carriers.

The pukes in management have told us that they can no longer afford to provide free medical coverage, so what happens, we are charged 1500-3000 a year for the privilege now! Then they say they can no longer afford our pensions, and what happens, pensions that were counted on after a lifetime of service are ended. Now these low life criminal crooks in management say they can no longer afford 401K matches and that will soon end. WTF people!! Wake up? When are we going to say enough is enough? I can guarantee you the despicable sob's in management have free medical coverage, plus a pension, plus the ability to bail on the company and go elsewhere for more money right of the bat! Pilots sure as hell can't!