Pilot's and Math

[FL530]

How much math would an average airline pilot use in one day? Could all of this math be done a a simple calculator? How much and how hard is the math you use while flying? Thanks

 

[Hawker rider]

VERY interesting question...

It really depends on the type of plane you are flying, i say a little light piston twin>>not much and yes on the calculator thing.

Flying a lear24 without autopliot and a fresh out of school co-pilot>>> quite a bit, and when you have one hand on the yoke, the second on the throttles, one eye on the instruments and the other on your co-pilot ( so he doesn't touch any buttons..yet)

Did i mention the pressurization system that you have to cherry pick, or a controller that gives you a descent restriction..........

All in All VERY math-demanding, and actually all the co-pilots I have flown with are absolutely very poor at it, and I do not allow calculators in the cockpit, until you prove that you can do it with the grey mass.

It's really up to yourself what level of dedication you are willing to give to your career, if you are just there for the ride and log some time, i say don't sweat it, i'll do it by myself

 

[FL530]

Algebra stuff, or simple math?

 

[generaltso]

algebra is simple math

 

[Singlecoil]

I would say the most a pilot needs to know is a good grasp of trigonometry. You should know why the crosswind component is 15 knots, for example. Eventually you can figure these out in your head (30 degrees is half, 45 is 70%, 60 degrees is 85%).

Also, if you want to get fancy and figure out exactly when to lead a turn onto a DME arc, you are going to need the radius of turn formula, which has a tangent in it, so again I would say trig.

Wind triangles in cross country planning are yet another example.

 

[bobbysamd]

Math

I've always preached that would-be pilots take all the math they can get. With a good math background they can at least get past Aeronautics for Naval Aviators.

I would recommend at least high school math through trig. And pay special attention to vectors during second semester Geometry. Understanding vectors is extremely helpful for understanding wind correction.

Also, make sure your basic arithmetic is up to snuff. You should be able to at least add, subtract, multipy, and divide.

 

[bigD]

Trig is definitely a good idea. You don't even need a formal trig course - just the basics are used for typical flying applications. Head over to the local Barns and Noble and pick up a book that reviews algebra and basic trig, and you'd be all set.

I do agree with Bobby that as much math as one could handle would be great, but I realize that some people don't have the time or inclination to study more than what's necessary.

 

[LearLove]

the only math you need:

my 30th pay check is:

37.5 X (current pay rate) = 30th pay gross
30th take home is (30th pay gross X 0.6) 25% for taxes and 15% for 401k.

my 15 pay check is
(37.5 + (any hours over 75)) X (currengt pay rate) = 15 pay gross
15th take home = (15th pay gross)X0.6
then add per diem.

CAUTION: never take a math class of any kind with the word "Complex" in the course title. Believe me I took Math 408 titled "Complex Variables" my junior year so I could take some Aerospace Engineering stuff as Mechanical Engineering electives my senior year. Big mistake big big maitake.

 

[boeingav8r]

Originally posted by Hawker rider

Flying a lear24 without autopliot and a fresh out of school co-pilot; quite a bit, and when you have one hand on the yoke, the second on the throttles, one eye on the instruments and the other on your co-pilot (so he doesn't touch any buttons..yet)

Let me guess, when you were a kid, you walked to school uphill...both ways...in the snow, right Hawker Rider?????

Originally posted by Hawker rider

All in All VERY math-demanding, and actually all the co-pilots I have flown with are absolutely very poor at it, and I do not allow calculators in the cockpit, until you prove that you can do it with the grey mass.

YOU do not allow calculators in your cockpit?? What planet are you from? I understand not letting copilots read magazines during flight or whatever, but we're all adults and they should be able to carry whatever they want with them. If it was our first time flying together and you tried pulling that micro-manager crap with me, we'd be outside talking after the first leg. I've carried a calculator in everything I've flown ranging from a cessna 150 to a 727. Every airline pilot (captain or FO) that I know carries one. That does not mean I am unable to mentally calculate my descent profile, but it does come in handy if you have a need to double check something. Also, calculators are necessary for accuracy while completing the weight and balance or even figuring how much fuel you want to take. So you think you are some authority on mathematics which enables you do decide if your copilot is good at math or not? Do they have to pass a little math quiz at the end of a trip before you let them graduate to calculator carrier? Your copilots are probably not learning too much when they fly with you and I'm willing to bet you are one of those captains who never lets the copilot fly. I know you're probably just trying to help, but the pilot who started this thread has less than 30 hours and his question is genuine. Who knows why he's questioning airline pilots about the use of math. Maybe math is not his forte and he's questioning himself if he should continue flying because of the math involved. Who knows. I hope you didn't scare him by making him think that captains are brainiacs, copilots are mathmatically challenged and he can't ever use a calculator in the aircraft.

Originally posted by Hawker rider

if you are just there for the ride and log some time, i say don't sweat it, i'll do it by myself

Do it by yourself, huh? You must have flown single pilot for your entire career before you started flying Lears. By the way, there's no "I" in team. Not that there's anything wrong with small companies, however, you probably fly for a smaller corporation where you are the big fish in the little pond. When you get to bigger companies and/or the airlines, your fellow pilots are not going to stand for your attitude.

FL350 -all of the advice here is right on. If you're currently attanding school, take lots of math classes...it will better prepare you and will be much harder than anything you will do in an airplane. The math that you will use in an airliner is straightforward, and after doing a month's worth of descent planning in an airliner, you'll have it down cold and it will be second nature. There are numerous tricks and shortcuts for descent planning that your captains will teach you if you just ask. They have been used for years and years because they work. Just watch what you're doing and recalculate ever 2-3 thousand feet or so. It's not that difficult. In fact, it actually gets fun planning descents just to see how it turns out. Most captains don't care if you carry a calculator. It's even a required item with some airlines.
Most of these new aircraft compute everything for you...but you still need to back it up with your own computations in your head. Stay ahead of the aircraft. Good luck to you...Get your hours and ratings as quick as you can..remember, in this industry, seniority is everything.


Hawker Rider, Take a look at the first part of this thread; It's for pilots such as yourself: Is This Job A Joke??

 

[SheGaveMeClap]

Wow Hawker Rider, you are one prude old bag, aren't you? I'd carry my calculator with me in YOUR cockpit and I'd use it to my hearts content. Note to self: Don't ever fly with you because CRM would go out the window, along with other things. Lighten up.

FL 530- Math is good. I hated it in school, but it's helped along the way. I took as little as possible and still managed to get by just fine. Learn what you can and you can apply it along the way during your training. Good luck.

 

[dmspilot00]

I'm not going to say that aviation math is easy or hard, but it is straightforward. If you can use a calculator, if you can do simple arithmetic in your head, and get a decent grade in high school algebra, then you will be ok.

I don't call aviation arithmetic "very math-demanding." Maybe mentally demanding is a better word, but certainly not math-demanding. Pilots do not solve complex equations, calculate unknown angles with trig, or do Calculus.

 

[Singlecoil]

Pilots do not solve complex equations, calculate unknown angles with trig, or do Calculus.

I do that, but I am not in the majority. You will be given many rules of thumb in your career, and many of them are derived from trig. One famous interview question of a few years ago was the United one of how to plan a visual descent point on a non-precision approach. Did you ever wonder why the answer was divide the HAA by 300? By using trig, you can determine that a pure 3 degree angle of descent would yield a divisor of 318, so where did 300 come from? It obviously was rounded from 318, and in fact yields a shallower descent. Would the United Captain be impressed that you could explain where that number came from? I would think so. Not that you'll need the answer to that question for the next six or seven years, but you see where I'm going.
If you are the kind of person that wants to know why instead of how, then you will need more math than simple arithmetic or rules of thumb. With some advanced math, you can come up with your own rules of thumb and know how they work.
I was always taught for DME arcs to just lead the turn by half of your groundspeed, i.e. .5 for 100 knots to turn onto the arc. I noticed this didn't work so well in higher speed aircraft and wondered why. Then I remembered from theory of flight how to compute a radius of turn formula in feet, converted it to nautical miles, applied it to a series of groundspeeds and yielded a useful table. All of this while I was high on acid and smashing my guitar at the Monterey Pop Festival. I was also chewing gum, but I digress.
Anyway, an airline I interviewed at had you fly DME arcs. The prep work I did allowed my to turn exactly onto the arc and made the ride easier. The more math you know, the easier your job will be.

 

[CatYaaak]

How much math would an average airline pilot use in one day? Could all of this math be done a a simple calculator? How much and how hard is the math you use while flying? Thanks

The short answer is "yes", the math required for cockpit chores on the ground or in the air rarely involves anything more than simple arithmetic, and a simple calculator will suffice.

Even without the benefit of FMSs, etc, Algebra and trig-type problems are taken care of through the use of charts, tables, and tools like the old E6-B, slide-rule slip sticks, etc.

That being said however, the larger answer is that having a good grasp algebra and trig will make your life a lot easier and your flying safer, because not only do you then understand how these tools are deriving their answers, but as a consequence your brain serves as a back-up and alert sytem for a "garbage in, garbage out" situation. Figuring out what's required to make a crossing restriction or constructing VDP defined by time or distance on non-precision approach are examples of headwork you should be able to do, or at least ballpark.

None of it can really be considered "higher math", so don't let that scare you. In fact, if you love flying, as you gain experience will increasingly see that mathematical relationships and translations are an integral part of what we do, and after awhile using them and keeping them in mind becomes second nature. If the subject does interest you and you want to get a start on some useful understanding, look into the basics of how time, distance and speed (horizontal and vertical) relate mathematically. Know how gradients are figured out and how to figure percentages. Knowing them will back up what your calculators/computers/charts/tables tell you.

Look at aviation math this way; A Southwest-facing sniper sitting on a 1500' hill trying to hit a running target 750 yards away and 100 feet below his position as it moves left-to-right and angles towards him on an 2-degree uphill slope at approximately 8 knots while a steady 9-knot wind blows from the East-Northeast on a day where the temp is 94 degrees and the humidity 95% does NOT need a degree in higher math to get a round in the kill zone.

Most certainly, our sniper is doing mental calculations that are expressed through mathematics, but only as they relate to how it affects the known ballistics of the round he fires. Consideration is (and must be) given to horizontal and vertical distance, speed, slope, wind vector, temp & humidity, and optics, to place the shot on-target, but it's not like he's up there mentally hashing through the higher math that serves as the foundation for his calculations.

And if you can master converting Centigrade and Farenheit temps at the drop of a hat off the top of your head, you're way ahead of the game.

 

[adam_jorgensen]

Pilot math

I wanted to know about this as well, what math does a pilot need to know. I want to know while I'm still in school what math I should be spending the most time on rather than wasting the most time on math I'll never use. I have really harped myself on trig and algebra and I think I may have reached my peak level of math. At least I hope so, so that is what I want to know. The last type of math I was working on was trig identities. I have basically covered all the trig there is for high school anyways. I have done allot of vector problems that involve airplanes like: if the wind is blowing from blah at blah speed and the airplane is flying on a heading of blah, what is the actual heading of the airplane? I have also done law of signs and law of cosines and all the geometry there is. It would be great to know that I have done all a pilot would need to know but have I? There is still allot of math out there that I don't know but its math that only engineers would use. I'm also pretty fluent in physics. Stuff like electrical and chemistry I know allot of. I hope this will do it. I haven't done the extreme hard calculus math like 3 dimensional math or higher. I'll worry about that math when I go to college but am I ok for now? What about things like English and history? Does a pilot have to know allot of that? (please say no.) What is this FL 530- Math? Is it some specific math book geared towards pilots? That would be great because I'm always looking for books that has to do with my career.

 

[FL000]

Flying a lear24 without autopliot and a fresh out of school co-pilot>>> quite a bit, and when you have one hand on the yoke, the second on the throttles, one eye on the instruments and the other on your co-pilot ( so he doesn't touch any buttons..yet)

Did i mention the pressurization system that you have to cherry pick, or a controller that gives you a descent restriction..........

All in All VERY math-demanding, and actually all the co-pilots I have flown with are absolutely very poor at it, and I do not allow calculators in the cockpit, until you prove that you can do it with the grey mass.

It's really up to yourself what level of dedication you are willing to give to your career, if you are just there for the ride and log some time, i say don't sweat it, i'll do it by myself

If all of this is accurate, your lack of CRM, delegation and leadership skills are more likely to get you killed than your co-pilot's math skills. In your post, the last five words are worth about a thousand.

I wish you and I could fly together so I could bring along the biggest friggin calculator you've ever seen. I mean this thing would be huge, like the first IBM computer; and I'd calculate everything, including how much your box of tampons adds to the W&B.

 

[pilotyip]

Observsations

We give a mini SAT type of test in our pilot screening. The best predictor on a candidates success in making Captain, is their math score. If it is high, it is unlikely that pilot will have any problems in upgrade or F/O ground school and flight training. With the guys in one STD DEV or more above the norm, we have had 1 failure in 5 years, in the group 1 STD DEV or more below the norm, about a 35% failure rate. It has nothing to do with a 4 yr degree, we have had non-college grads score higher than college grads from the major aviation schools. Your linear thinking ability is probably the best predictor on your aviation success potential.

 

[Purple Haze]

Re: Pilot math

...am I ok for now? What about things like English and history? Does a pilot have to know allot of that? (please say no.) What is this FL 530- Math? Is it some specific math book geared towards pilots? That would be great because I'm always looking for books that has to do with my career.

First off, I am a math cripple; and second, yes you are ok for now. The replies have been great. The detail that seems to be missing is that you will often have to do multiple calculations very quickly, under pressure, while doing other things - like flying the airplane, running a checklist, making radio calls, not busting an altitude or airspeed, not overspeeding your flaps or gear, picking up the pen or corn dog you just dropped, while getting the anti-ice turned on and remembering the minimum power setting you must maintain for it to function. My point: The math will never be very complex unless you become involved in engineering or flight test; however, your brain must be conditioned to do basic math through division and VERY BASIC algebra in very stressful conditions. Classroom math does little to prepare you for this, but since the brain is a muscle, conditioning it with college level math will give you the best foundation you can get.

English and history: You will get all you need in the pursuit of a 4-year degree. In college you will have to write research papers, which will require some knowledge of English.
FL 530 math??? No. There is a book called Mental Math for Pilots - by Ronald D. McElroy, but you don't need it (now or ever).

The big exception to the above is military flying. Someone mentioned the book "Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators." If you aspire to fly in the military, you will have to survive flight school academics - which moves pretty quickly. I just took a peek at the aero book and got a nasty shot of stomach acid which reminded me of that grossly unpleasant experience. If you plan to go military, "Mo' math is mo' betta."

I am encouraged to see a young guy with a plan who is getting the job done. Best of luck to you - there will be many bumps along the way. Hang tough.

 

[exeagle]

My condolences to all of Hawker Rider's copilots.

 

[metrodriver]

I think English should be a must. Sometimes I have a very hard time reading some of the posts, like it's written in some foreign language. I feel sorry for the mechanics that have to read the write-ups, hopefully the correct problem will get fixed.
The most common ones I see: site / sight and there / their.
Site has to do with a place: web site, burial site. Sight has to do with vision: eye sight, gunsight.
There has to do with a place: I'm going there. Their is possessive: these are their belongings.
Their is a web sight of a company, there airplanes are such a sorry site

 

[dmspilot00]

Singlecoil, you're right, but I meant you won't "need" to do that routinely or while simulataneously flying the airplane.

Algebra 1, 2 and Trig at the high school level are good. The only benefit of taking a higher math than that would be because your basic algebra and trig skills would improve. With every math class you take you will need the material and skills that you learned (or were supposed to learn) in your previous math classes. It is not that the math is complex; it's not. There's just a lot of it and you have to be good at the simple stuff. Just like the difference between a posessive word such as "Pilot's" and a plural one such as "Pilots." Simple, but you need to know it nonetheless.

I think English should be a must. Sometimes I have a very hard time reading some of the posts, like it's written in some foreign language.

I agree, look at the title of the thread! My pet peeve is when people put an apostrophe after a word to make it plural. Come on!

We give a mini SAT type of test in our pilot screening. The best predictor on a candidates success in making Captain, is their math score.

What kind of math do you test? Can you give us a sample of one of the harder problems?