Pilot shortage? Cut training!

[slackass]

Copied from; [email protected]

There's nothing new about ab initio training programs that start flight students off from zero time with the goal of an airline job. But ICAO, the International Civil Aviation Organization, is now developing that track into a completely separate certification path, with a drastic cut in the required flight time to get to the right seat in a passenger jet. Alteon Training, a Boeing subsidiary, announced this week that it's launching a "beta test" of a training program for the ICAO Multi-Crew Pilot License in Brisbane, Australia. "The world's airlines will need more than 17,000 pilots each year for the next 20 years to fill the seats of the airplanes on order," said Marsha Bell, a spokeswoman for Alteon. "The world needs a better training solution for those pilots." The proposed new track has been in the works for several years, and has attracted some concern from the aviation community. The MPL would require just 240 hours of total time, with 70 hours of that in an actual aircraft, and only 10 hours solo. Current rules require at least 1,500 hours total time. Alteon says its competency-based training program prepares pilots effectively and efficiently through increased use of modern simulation and crew-based training. Cadets will fly Diamond DA-40 airplanes and DA-40 Level 5 simulators.

 

[pilotyip]

The Germans and the Japanese used the same method of cutting training to fill their cockpits at the end of WWII. The worldwide pilot shortage is spreading and we are starting to see the effects here in the US.

 

[McNugget]

The Germans and the Japanese used the same method of cutting training to fill their cockpits at the end of WWII. The worldwide pilot shortage is spreading and we are starting to see the effects here in the US.

Yeah, but they charged more for the accelerated kamikazee training program and you had to have a 4-year degree.

 

[labbats]

Today your flight crew will be Captain Crusty McMoustache and First Officer Bonzai IdidnthavetoCFI.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Who said a pilot shortage was a good thing? Now we're being replaced by Burger King students with no proven ability to fly an airplane for more than 10 hours by themselves.

And the pay will be commensurate with that experience as well.

Just hope I won't have to fly with these clowns. But I know I will.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Who said a pilot shortage was a good thing? Now we're being replaced by Burger King students with no proven ability to fly an airplane for more than 10 hours by themselves.

And the pay will be commensurate with that experience as well.

Just hope I won't have to fly with these clowns. But I know I will.

No, it's the opposite. As the pilot shortage worsens, they will have a harder time finding pilots and will have to compensate us better. It's basic supply and demand. The stream of starry eyed kids with SJS drying up is the best thing that can happen to us.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Sounds about like the typical "accelerated" regional requirements at the present time to me. No offense, direct track guys, but for the most part I feel like it's a one man show with you in the right seat.... just not enough real world experience.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

You've got that right. Talking on the radio? Fuggedaboutit.

 

[79%N1]

If there is such a pilot shortage, why has it taken me 5 years to upgrade at a crappy Regional Airline?

 

[Mr Wu]

coz it's seniority + ability

 

[YourPilotFriend]

If there is such a pilot shortage, why has it taken me 5 years to upgrade at a crappy Regional Airline?

Because the pilot shortage just started this year, you won;t have to wait another five years to get an upgrade......unless you work for eagle.

 

[Shaheen]

Today your flight crew will be Captain Crusty McMoustache and First Officer Bonzai IdidnthavetoCFI.

Why, may I ask, you think one has to be a CFI [or have the CFI experience] to be an airline pilot?

I never hear that Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers, Firefighters, Nurses, Businessman/woman, ATC personnel, etc., you get my drift, have to have a 'teaching' experience in order to be good at their profession.

Granted that Flight Instruction helps in some ways, but please explain how does it make you a better candidate for Airline Flying?

The way Flight Instruction is done, at best it helps you log flight time while 99% of the time you don't even touch controls.

If anything, I would rather have a former 135 Dog. I know, for me, the 135 experience was priceless.

Shaheen
CFII (Working on MEI)
Over 1100 dual given.

 

[labbats]

I instructed and did 135 night freight.

My point was the guy paying zero dues and having zero experience flying my family over thunderstorms at FL370.

 

[legalalien]

This is really nothing new. British Airways cadet schemes have done this for years. A guy i went to high school with started a 54 week course with BA in 1988(?) zero time to a 'frozen' ATPL and started in the right seat of a 757 with just over 200 hours.

Of course the major difference is that BA paid for everything, he was an employee from day one and they had something like 25000 applications for about 200 slots. In other words they chose on ability to make it through training not on ability to pay for the course which I would suspect this is.

 

[mynameisjim]

It's nice how Boeing's Alteon estimates 17,000 pilots per year based on current aircraft orders, without taking any estimates on how many of those airplanes are replacements, without adding any additional capacity.

 

[lear35pilot]

Yeah the BA program has similarity to military programs. Think about it, the military takes people with little or no experience and they are flying in jets by 200 or less hrs. They select only the candidate that seem to have the skills and capability to make it through. Many apply, but few are granted the slots. I have a friend that was flying left seat with only 1,100 hrs. total time in a KC-135. I have over 2,500 hrs. and probably won't see upgrade for another 1,000 hrs. if I stay at the place I'm at.

 

[Sticky]

I was never a CFI either. Guess I'll never be a good pilot...

 

[Tarzan]

Why, may I ask, you think one has to be a CFI [or have the CFI experience] to be an airline pilot?

I never hear that Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers, Firefighters, Nurses, Businessman/woman, ATC personnel, etc., you get my drift, have to have a 'teaching' experience in order to be good at their profession.

Granted that Flight Instruction helps in some ways, but please explain how does it make you a better candidate for Airline Flying?

The way Flight Instruction is done, at best it helps you log flight time while 99% of the time you don't even touch controls.

If anything, I would rather have a former 135 Dog. I know, for me, the 135 experience was priceless.

Shaheen
CFII (Working on MEI)
Over 1100 dual given.

Doctors and ATC personnel are good ones to start with. Doctors as well as nurses do one of these things called internship where they watch other doctors/nurses do their jobs and learn form them. This happens as well with ATC personnel. It takes a few years of clicking on the keyboard, calling next center and intense study of the airspace before they start talking on the radio unsupervised. Once again, they do alot of watching.

Advantages of teaching over direct track. Experience: You sit there and watch alot of guys maek the same mistakes over and over again. Additionallu, your butt is in the seat developping a scan. You have watch the airplane, listen for the radio, teach and insure you don't crash the airplane. Great for learning how to multitask in an adverse enviroment. Finally, by watching people from all different walks of life make the same mistakes over and over and over, should bring you down a couple of notches on the pride scale. It makes you realize that I can happen to you too. Take for example the Comair crash. As soon as it happened, I pulled out the airport diagram and looked at it and thought, "I could screw that up. I had better watch for that." Why, because I've seen enough guys make mistakes that the last guy made. We are human and prone to similar mistakes. I try to learn from others so I don't have to pay the price.

 

[xjhawk]

you do not get it.......

Why, may I ask, you think one has to be a CFI [or have the CFI experience] to be an airline pilot?

I never hear that Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers, Firefighters, Nurses, Businessman/woman, ATC personnel, etc., you get my drift, have to have a 'teaching' experience in order to be good at their profession.

Granted that Flight Instruction helps in some ways, but please explain how does it make you a better candidate for Airline Flying?

The way Flight Instruction is done, at best it helps you log flight time while 99% of the time you don't even touch controls.

If anything, I would rather have a former 135 Dog. I know, for me, the 135 experience was priceless.

Shaheen
CFII (Working on MEI)
Over 1100 dual given.

sorry but its true, Flight Instructor time might suck but it teaches a pilot to recognize a problem and react to the problem in a manner to which correct the potentially dangerous problem. I for one would rather have a pilot get wet behind the ears teaching than at the controls of a passanger jet.

 

[XJohXJ]

Hey Shaheen, don't worry. I don't think anyone is saying that 135 experience isn't as good as or better than CFI time. The point being made is that before someone comes to the airlines (or any other multi-crew environment), it is very helpful if that pilot has had a year or two making decisions and judgements on his/her own, with his/her own butt on the line.

CFI time is valuable, and allows pilots to learn a tremendous amount from observation and explanation. 135 time is valuable 'cause it puts you through the grinder, and if you come out in one piece at the end, you've definately learned a lot!

 

[turbinesurgeon]

No, it's the opposite. As the pilot shortage worsens, they will have a harder time finding pilots and will have to compensate us better. It's basic supply and demand. The stream of starry eyed kids with SJS drying up is the best thing that can happen to us.

That is true in every business except aviation. When I was wrenching on a airplanes and there was a shortage, companies would just hire more incompetent mechanics and the wages never went up. The same thing will happen with pilots.

 

[crashpad]

Why, may I ask, you think one has to be a CFI [or have the CFI experience] to be an airline pilot?......I would rather have a former 135 Dog. I know, for me, the 135 experience was priceless.

Because nowadays as a Captain you will be flight instructing some idiot behind the controls of your airliner who doesn't think he/she needs any instruction!!! I'd like the freight doggy too, but the majority of your copilots think they've already got it figured out and those are the ones you have to teach.

 

[Speedtape]

Because nowadays as a Captain you will be flight instructing some idiot behind the controls of your airliner who doesn't think he/she needs any instruction!!! I'd like the freight doggy too, but the majority of your copilots think they've already got it figured out and those are the ones you have to teach.

My, My! I agree with your post, to some degree. Bottom line, no matter what seat, we all need to recognize, that as pilots, none of us ever reach a point that we can't learn more, even from the low time guy in the right seat. Most likely, what you may be seeing, was you at one point in your career.

However, having said that, if your the PIC, no one can usurp your authority. What they don't teach you in those "New Captain" classes is how to deal with some of those difficult personalities that you may occasionally run into. But, that is part of the learning curve that they don't include in the syllabus! And of course, they probably don't teach them how to deal with some of the anal left seaters.

 

[CFI2766]

Fair enough, there will be times when everyone in the cockpit can learn.

Left and Right seat. However, don't think that you are SUPER Cap'n because your new FO asks a few questions. Also, I think it very poor form to treat the new FO like a nuisance or hassle because he does things the way the training department taught him to do, as opposed to the way that the SUPER Cap'n likes to do them.


G

 

[flyf15]

Airlines paying for training could be a very very bad thing for our profession. Currently the pool of available pilots is drying up for many reasons, one of them being the huge cost of entry/training. Say an airline comes to you and says "We'll pay for all your flight training and give you a job at the end"... you'd be ecstatic as a wannabe pilot to hear this, I probably at that point in my life would've fainted. Now they tag on a tiny little line in the contract that says "And you have to stay with us for 10 years, agree to only be paid $6/hr with no work rules, and owe us $200,000 if you bail early" Few new pilots will turn down a chance at their otherwise unattainable dream for something like that so far in the future and so unrelated to what they're doing right now. They sign up and instantly you have an industry full of nothing but PFT'ers who just happened to replace the "P" with a huge horrible training contract that will be enforcable.

 

[Exskydiverdrivr]

I've said it before- but here we go again. Being a CFI not only takes you to a higher standard (i.e. Instructor level of knowledge), it teaches young spikey haired, ipod wearin backpack carrien know it alls PEOPLE SKILLS.

 

[Guitar Guy]

I was never a CFI but I think I picked up some of those people skills in the professional world. I also think I've do well in my flying career even without the CFI background. A CFI background can be a good thing but I don't think it's the only valid background for a flying career. I would suggest that good judgement and the ability to learn also matter.

 

[zman]

This is the most horrible industry we can be in, no body will come here, who the hell wants to make even 50 grand a year topping out at a regional in some of the major cities ....soon everything will be automated anyways

 

[pilotlbs]

I instructed and did 135 night freight.

My point was the guy paying zero dues and having zero experience flying my family over thunderstorms at FL370.

You mean into.....

 

[Kaman]

By offering these programs it allows the airline industry to once again have the upper hand in pilot pay and work rules. Rather than using the supply and demand model to attract the best candidates with commensurate pay and benefits. The airlines are going to return to PFT with a twist by starting people at day-1. Almost a modern day version of indentured servants!